Ep 29: Holy otitis! Ear infections in pets!

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

ear, dog, ear infection, infections, allergy, ear canal, vet, veterinarians, year, clients, cat, pet owners, big, steroids, owners, rosales, pet, treat, otoscope, steroid

00:03

This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses,

00:12

Merck animal health, a leader and otic treatments for over 25 years. Welcome to chats with the Chatfields. This is a podcast that's going to expand your idea of what impacts veterinarians, pet owners, and basically all animal lovers in the galaxy as humans. We are your hosts. I'm Dr. Jen the vet with cozy

00:35

oh my gosh, I forgot what I was supposed to say because of that...I'm Dr. Jason. I have no pet. So there we go.

00:40

If you have not yet subscribed to our show, why not? Just go to Chatfieldshow.com And subscribe today. And if you want to reach us, you can reach me with any message full of love and positivity at Jen@Chatfieldshow.com

00:56

And if you want to reach me myself and I for anything real gotta keep it real when you email me now no no warm fuzzies You can reach me at Jason@Chatfieldshow.com I guess you can count my a panda bear back there. Yeah, you

01:09

gotta panda bear on your pillow. So I'm so excited I have Cosette with us the farm fresh Frenchie in the chat room even though she really would like to go get a treat.

01:19

She's really looking super excited about this. I know

01:22

Do you know why I have her here today?

01:24

Because you want to

01:27

because look at one of our most exciting features which is wrinkly skin. Well, actually, that is more appropriate than you might know Dr. Jason for today because into the chat room for her encore hopefully not to be last appearance. We're bringing a dermatologist perfect. But let's but we're going to talk about a very specific skin.

01:51

Right not her not her terrible noisy breathing. Not that that's that's a whole four or five episodes right just on her noises.

01:58

That's how she communicates is her grunting. But look at this. Look. Look right here

02:05

must be the ears. The ears,

02:07

its ears, everybody. So I thought I would show everyone some really spectacular dog ears right here. And we're just bringing her in so today's guest is none other than Dr. Millie Rosales, our very favorite dermatologist from Miami and she is appropriately on social as @gotitchypet doctor Rosales tell me because I just call you the very best dermatologist in Miami but you have a practice there and it is called

02:43

Miami veterinary dermatology,

02:45

Miami veterinary dermatology. So if you're in South Florida, you better look up Dr. Rosales. But we are going to talk all about ears today. And Cosette is very excited. She's also very interested in my headphones. Anyway, so I'm gonna put her down.

03:02

Oh, thank goodness she is stealing the show.

03:05

I know but we love her so very much so cutie. Okay.

03:08

Such a wide range of emotions. That dog

03:12

you know her all her most common Emotion. Emotion is happy. Yes. But okay. Anyway, Dr. Rosales, you know, I love the French ears. And I know you do too. Well, actually, I don't know if you do too.

03:29

Yeah. Just assume everybody loves. Give me a break. I know for sure believes and everybody else is that

03:36

right? It is horrible. So okay, Dr. rosellas. If we're talking about yours, not about wrinkles, but about yours. What is your favorite breed?

03:48

My favorite breed? Grantees are probably out there. Yeah. Yeah, my number one patient. See? Yeah, are they really? Yes, Frenchies, and actually, doodles are probably the next station I see. And I see them with your problem.

04:08

That's great. I heard a doodles were like the perfect dog, which is why you know, they're $8 million apiece and everybody seems to have

04:17

Okay, so, yeah, so we're jumping right into it. So doodle owners Listen up, right, because we are going to talk about ear infections, otitis, all of this sort of thing. So for for ear infections. Okay, number one. Let's start with the basics. Do dogs get ear infections?

04:39

Yes, they do. Okay, right.

04:43

When she when she asked a question, she's not what my answer. To right. So just assume every question is directed at you.

04:54

Okay, so All right. So dogs get ear infections. Largest get this out right from the gym. them too. Does it mean that you're a bad pet owner if your dog gets or cat gets in your infection?

05:07

No, no, no, no.

05:10

Those of you guys watching the video, you should have seen her face fall like, Oh, no. No, never know if that's true, and I agree, but I see so many pet owners that when I say, Yep, we got an ear infection. They're like, Oh, they're embarrassed, right? I know. And it just,

05:29

it just Yeah, and I think one thing there is sometimes some owners think maybe they did something wrong. Like, baby, they gave their dog a bath and water got in their ear, and it was something that they did the cause of ear infection. And actually, a lot of the times it is not so so that's gonna probably be a good one to talk about. Yeah,

05:51

yeah.

05:52

Great lead in to next, yeah, causes is your infections and all you have is not poor parenting or poor ownership. What causes these ear infections?

06:03

Yeah, so the Yeah, the majority of the time why a dog against an ear, and I'm gonna say dogs because actually, cats don't commonly get ear infections. So the majority of the time why a dog gets an ear infection is because of an allergy. Typically, it's an allergy to maybe something they're eating so in their food, or something environmental like pollen allergies.

06:27

Okay, so, um, so yeah, so we jumped into a bunch of like causation, and stuff like that. So I will tell you that I had a, I can use one hand to count the number of cat otitis cases or ear infections that I've seen. Everyone comes in, and they're like, Oh, my cat has ear mites. Why does your cat have ear mites? Well, they're scratching their ears. That's not necessarily why. Right. And I look and I'm like, oh, it's because your cat has fleas. Number one, right? Your cat. I mean, your cat has fleas. You're just seeing them scratching their ears. And then, but but I had two weeks ago, I had two cat, true otitis infections in the same week, and I thought I should hop the plane to Vegas. This is crazy. Because the odds are it just doesn't happen with cat. Right. So anyway, so yeah, so So cat, folks, you're out of the woods there except for the fleece situation. That's all you.

07:23

Why is that? What doesn't happen with cats? Very, very fair question. I think. I don't know. That's a good question.

07:29

I mean, it's not like it couldn't happen. I mean, allergies could affect yours. But you know, for whatever reason, it's just really not as common. But what Dan said, though, if a cat has an ear problem, or there's a tear on their ears, yeah, it's important to make sure they don't have mites. Or another big one is more so in young cats, they can get polyps in their ears. So that will give you one ear unilateral, so one ear would probably have the problem, and then it can cause a secondary infection. Yes,

08:01

yes. Cats are just super pets is what you're telling me. We don't know why, but then nothing bothers them.

08:06

But it may be a good thing because cats are not very good to examine. Or

08:12

Holy moly. Yeah. That's for sure. If it wasn't the cat's idea to get their ear examined. They're not down with it.

08:21

Yeah, treating a cat tears. Probably not a lot of fun.

08:24

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

08:26

But but you got to do it. You got to be consistent. Yes. Yeah, the universe is definitely looking out for veterinarians on that front. Okay, so I do we look so that's our cats. That's cat ears, right there. carriers in a nutshell. Fleas, polyps, sometimes mites, and just bacterial and you

08:48

know, you're on your own? No, no, but but the other

08:51

thing is like one more thing on cat ears. Because after we do cat ears, we're going to take a break in the new dog years. So everyone, like Prepare yourselves. That's the schedule. The other thing about cat ears. In my experience, a doctor merciless is going to tell us what hers is, is the sooner that you get them looked at the better because they don't get better on their own. Right. What's your experience doctor? Was it?

09:18

Yeah, I mean, in general with any ear problem. Yes. The sooner you address it the better.

09:24

Okay. All right. I think that's all about cat.

09:27

That's the opposite of my typical how I approach my own health right? I just typically ignore stuff. Just don't look at it as goes away. Right. That's not you're saying that's not good advice. That's interesting. All right. I'll take that note to self stop ignoring you know what, you know

09:45

what? Also like I told him this. We're growing up. You can't just keep throwing everything in the closet. Close the door when you're supposed to clean your room. Yep. Like it does. I mean, until the closets full of them. What do you do? Right? So it's the same thing

09:57

as when you move you get no house Oh, that's when you change jobs. Right? Right.

10:03

I thought you would get another kid so that you'd have to get another room to have another closet. Yeah,

10:07

that runs out quick.

10:11

Okay. All right. So that's cat ears in the nutshell hmm. And we're going to take a very short break. And then we're going to come back and we're going to talk all about dog ears. So dog lovers we got you see on the other side.

10:31

Dr. Jenn the vet, and I'm here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Ki platsen. He's got an incredibly interesting story all about full bucket health,

10:41

my college roommate and that school, housemate. Dr. Rob Franklin and I were collaborating on some cases, both of us were struggling with diarrhea in some of our patients, whether it was after a procedure after after an illness. So we created a formulation but we didn't want to just create a formulation. We also wanted to create a movement and animal health, for being able to help animals in need through the use of bark products that we developed that really has resulted in our one for one giving program, which we're really proud of, as much as we are our formulations for dogs versus cats. And so

11:15

if you want to know more about their one for when giving it full bucket, or if you're interested in better supporting your dog, cat or horses, digestive health, head over to full bucket health.com to learn more. Summertime is otitis externa time for many dogs. Did you know that otitis externa affects up to 20% of dogs. And when it comes to otitis externa the right therapy makes a big difference. Merck Animal Health offers a complete line of solutions that veterinarians can trust. Hey, pack listeners, your continuing education code for this episode is cc 220011. Okay, so now we did cat. Now let's talk about dog ears because I can have dog ears. I know you see a ton of dog ears. Because that has a ton of dog ear as a front teeth. So you said there was two breeds that you see most often that have ear problems. And that was doodles anything doodle? And then you see Frenchies a lot. Which kind of surprises me, but because in regular practice, I see a lot of dogs with ears that are what I call flop ear, they lay down on their head instead of erect ears, like for Jesus stand up. But you said franchisees have a lot of ear problems.

12:47

Yeah, I think maybe it's just the population here in Miami. A lot of pet owners just have French cheese. I think French is a popular breed. French cheese have a lot of skin problems, skin allergies, and just kind of automatically. A dog with allergies is probably going to have issues not all of them, but some of them do. But yeah, the top would be French cheese doodles. I mean, but I will see Cocker Spaniels, English bulldogs, Labradors, German Shepherds. Yeah, I

13:17

would, I would have voted cocker spaniels. For sure. Right? Yeah. But before going to vet school and learn about all that kind of stuff. It was always the, the ear, the dogs with the ears that are floppy down, cover up all that area. They're the worst. I was sort of surprised when you said, you know, doodles. Right. Because that's, it's interesting.

13:36

Yeah, yeah. I just think they're becoming a popular breed. And so now we're seeing that. But I'll see a lot all sorts of other dogs. Yeah. Yeah.

13:46

And that's what I think is interesting, too, is that you're you can't really pick a breed and say, and now I don't have to worry about your infections. Right. Like, I think any dog with ears can get an ear infection. Yes. Yeah. And so what so like for pet owners that are listening. Let's start with, like, signs of ear infection. Yes. Okay. So,

14:12

the obvious so itchy ears, the ear may actually look red from the outside, so irritated, red, smelly, you might actually see a discharge. Maybe they're shaking their head a lot. Shaking. It key up pretty bad if the ear infection gets a little bit more deeper where they'll serve Tilty um, they'll be painful. So those are pretty obvious signs. But I can say I've been in situations where, you know, maybe it was just a stoic dog. And, you know, when we do our full exam, we're like, we always look at the ear and we look inside. I'm like, Oh my gosh, there's an ear infection here. And that's when an owner is like, oh my gosh, I never Notice anything and that could be completely possible. So yeah, I think it's important in regular physical exam when a pet owner goes to see their, their bed, your wide exam visit is important because the year is hidden, you know, you can only see the outside but things can be going on on the inside, that you may not be aware of.

15:19

So what do you see? So for the clients who see you sticking that your eyeball in there, that little instrument and CNC what is it that you see that you say, Oh, my God, that's an infection, just, you know, just for the the non veterinarians who are listening out of here, they're probably like, what is it? Do they see like a whole party of bacteria going on down in there? What what is it that? Yeah,

15:37

that's an awesome question. Yeah. So the device is called an otoscope. otoscope, similar to what your medical doctor used to look at your ear. And this is actually good for even general dentists to know like you're looking at the ear canal, and it should be nice and open. It shouldn't be swollen or red, you're looking to see if there's abnormal discharge. A little wax is normal, but leaving excessive amount of wax or pus is not normal.

16:11

I would say plus is not normal, right? Not normal.

16:16

Yeah. Normal.

16:18

And then you want to always want to make sure the eardrum is there, we should be able to see the eardrum is it intact? Does it look normal? So those are the things we we look for in an ear. So I

16:31

gotta tell you, I know I'm taking over for Dr. Chatfield, but I don't I don't care. Listen, it's about her her dog. I was we were concerned about it at the farm. And so we went to look in her ears and I shined a light in one year and I swear the light came out. Is it on my other hand on the other side? Right through Is that Is that normal? Is that just a Frenchie thing? Or what? Should we be concerned about this? I mean, it kind of explained a lot

16:58

to be honest. No, I don't know how that happened.

17:00

No, no, no.

17:04

No comment. No comment.

17:06

But you know what? What's true about that is that when they did that, she looked really pretty when they did it. You don't have to be smart. If you're pretty.

17:19

Thanks for enlightening everybody on what what you see down there and what you see on a bad year and a good year. Very cool. Because I'm sure people are curious. What are they booking? And they're super cool, right?

17:27

Yeah, I have a video otoscope. So think of it like little endoscopy of the ear. So I'll have that in the exam room. And for a patient that's, you know, pretty calm. I'll show the owner. Like, hey, this is what I'm seeing in the air. And I think yeah, that helps a lot, especially

17:45

to the owners. Like I think, if I didn't use one

17:50

right, yeah, I mean, not all pets are. You know, but the ones that are I just it does, kind of makes clients understand better what's going on inside their dog's ear?

18:03

Right? Well, because so for me like when I when I flip up an ear like especially on like a pitbull or something like this or pitbull mix. Those dogs are very stoic. And so when I'm doing an annual exam, and I say, hey, any issues, you guys are concerned about anything going on? And they said, no, no, no dogs are in gray. We're basically just here because we need vaccine boosters and the exam. And I flip up the ear, right? If the ears are flopped over, they're not cooperating. And I flipped with the ear and it looks okay, right? Maybe it's a little hyperemia, a little bit red. And because the dogs excited, or it's really hot, outside, whatever, and I look in that canal. And the dog just sits there, but I looked down the canal and it's on fire. Right? It's swollen, I can't really push all the way in. There's just that black or brown, waxy gunk exudate like everywhere, and I'm looking and I'm like, Oh my God, this ears on fire. But the dog is looking at me like, What else? Whatever, you know, like they don't care. Right, but being able to show right here and Can you hold my beer. But when I take that sample, because we I like to run cytology, your cytology on all of those to see what the population is. So when I take that sample, and I pull out my little swab, and it's got like, bloody gunk, black nasty, they go home, they had no way, right? And then they instantly feel terrible because they're like, oh, that has to be painful. You know? That's very demonstrative to owners. And that's why we need to look at your dog or your cat or your guinea pig every year, right? Yes. And so, so we do cytology? How valuable Do you think that doing cytology, where I take the swab, I roll it on a microscopic slide I'd be staying it and I look at it. How valuable Do you think that cytology is do we need to do it every time or not?

20:07

Yes, yes, super valuable. Yes. Anytime there is a sign of an ear infection, that exudate that discharge needs to get a sample than just like you said, you need to look under state and look under the microscope and see what kind of infection is it could be bacteria, it can be used. Sometimes, you know, yeast typically has this kind of yucky, rancid odor. But it doesn't necessarily mean that that's not the diagnostic indicator, we need to take a sample and do a cytology. So that's what your bed always asks you to do run tests, and that's why it's important so that, then we can choose the right meds for that infection.

20:49

Yeah, right. And so Jason, you cannot appropriately select medication for ear infections with a scratch and sniff. Yeah,

20:57

I was gonna say, can you just smell and be like, yes or no, the positive test? No.

21:01

But there's a lot of owners like I was already

21:04

getting reaction from your, from your description. Like, I know what that smells like, backing off. It was, you know, anyone who's felt that knows I'm talking about

21:12

there's so many owners that come in, and I don't know if it's on the internet or whatever. And they come in to me, they're like, Oh, I know it's used or just need this, or I just need that.

21:23

Definitely. Google situation.

21:25

It is right. Do you get a lot of that to duck rosellas?

21:30

We will, especially when some patients that have allergies, and then just one of their presentation of their allergies, just getting recurrent ear infections? And they're like, Oh, well, look, it was just like the same one, you know, six months ago, I want this thing done. I'm like, Yeah, I may look like that. Or it may seem like that, but we need you to come in, we need to look at the error again, take a sample and just confirm that. And then do you

21:54

do you do a recheck, recheck your cytology towards the end of the medication course?

22:01

And yes, yes, it typically do. No, you'll have to do a follow up. Here, again, your psychology?

22:09

And are you looking for nothing? Or like if you get like occasional yeast, or occasion or like, what are you looking for on that? Does it have to be totally clear? Or what are you looking for?

22:22

I'm looking for totally clear, and if there is occasional, but the ear looks completely normal. And okay, I feel like I've got it I, you know, maybe they just have to finish up on whatever they have left of their ear drops, and we're going to be quiet. But that follow up exam is really important, again, to look inside the ear, because the client can only see so much from the outside, but who knows what's still going on in the inside? Yeah,

22:49

yeah. So the other thing that I like to do, too, and see, I don't know if, if all the chatterboxes know that, when we get an expert in the chat room. It's very helpful for some of us veterinarians, because we like to say, Hey, I do this. Yeah. Okay,

23:07

a friend of mine asked this question why

23:09

I'm asking for a friend. So I'll do like a low dose, anti inflammatory injection, at the outset of treatment, because I just feel like the pet is so uncomfortable. You know, if I look in that ear canal is so I'm fine.

23:28

Are you? Are you saying anti inflammatory because you don't like to use the right word?

23:32

A little bit, a little. A little, a little, a little steroid. A very low dose, like, you know, like, I have a big burger king or a quarter of a make per keg. And you know, it's out of the system in you know, 48 hours. It's just so that they're more comfortable immediately, because I don't want them to continue shaking their head. Yes. And then you'll be back to me for an oral hematoma. Right?

23:58

Yes, yes. So, I think it's incredibly important to use an anti inflammatory, I'm gonna say it and you need to use a steroid. For that, it might be, you know, a mild otitis were, you know, that may feel like they don't need to, but I think in a lot of cases, they do. And I think a lot of vets are afraid. I mean, a lot of vets are afraid to steroids client on steroids. And just for everything you said, it's, it's, they're painful. If you don't take that pain away, which a lot of it is inflammation. It makes it really hard for the client to apply the medication properly.

24:46

That's the other thing. I'm like, like the custom dogs don't want you to touch their ears, right? They're not stoic at all. They're totally appropriately dramatic. Like I

24:56

would act right if it was me within 100% I'd be screaming during Halloween, don't touch it. I don't know where it's gonna go.

25:03

And so I feel like it's it's not fair for that client like that owner and pet relationship. If I say, Go and Medicaid this year even though it's so painful, you can't touch it without him yelping, you know, do this. So, yeah, so I guess that's a little bit also like my plea to pet owners who are listening please let your veterinarian Yeah. There's a lot of clients that are afraid of steroid administration to exactly, you know, which which can be appropriate fear, right? We don't want long term use of steroids. That's just masking. But

25:36

yeah, right. And it's not, you know, and when we do it are like, this is not meant to be long term, it's going to be and I like to do oral steroids. And maybe, because some of the cases I see are probably more more severe. And they that steroid over about a two, maybe three week period. Yeah. And, yeah, of course, there's going to be patients like a diabetic patient who just can't get steroids. So yeah, there's going to be used in cases where your pad cannot get steroids. And I'll try to compensate with a topical steroid, you know, maybe in addition to the ear medicine to get that inflammation down or pain meds,

26:18

or a nonsteroidal, I mean, anything that will help that inflammation, although nonsteroidals tend to, like we go for the big gun, right of the steroid, if it's truly that inflamed. But those kids, those kids, those kids, those dogs with chronic recurrent otitis, I mean, it just can be so, so inflamed, I can't even get like the cone of my otoscope down in the canal. So yeah, so please, please, please let your veterinarian do diagnostics, and let them get. I've seen

26:53

a lot of clients that really are against a steroid. They've been educated one way, and it's like, and they just don't want to have that here steroid. And I think, absolutely, that's the devil. I know, a lot of veterinarians kind of come out of school. And I'm trying not trying to say that because they there are some issues with long term steroid use, but but when you get out there, you realize the benefits of especially short term, like Dr. Jin said, you know, you gotta be able to get the inflammation down before you can do it. You gotta be able to treat the dog right? Before better. But do you guys have a lot of humans? Like the clients who are? Yes, really? Yes. Didn't say hey, or does it take some explanation? Right, it

27:31

take some explanation, it takes some explanation. I'm not putting your dog on a whopping dose. I mean, there's a range with steroids, you could do anti inflammatory or you can do immunosuppressive and there, they don't understand that. Steroids bad, right? And, and then there is short acting steroids, there's long acting steroids. We're doing this tapered, so in probably two weeks, it's going to be we're going to stop, but if you we don't do this, you're not gonna be able to medicate properly. And then the one other thing is, those ear canals are so inflamed and closed, just like Jen said, she couldn't even get like an otoscope the ear, if we don't open up that ear canal, it's hard for medicines to get deep down into the air. And so we're not treating it properly.

28:19

Right, your video otoscope comes in handy.

28:25

Right, yeah. So when they see that in plain deer, they're like, Okay, you know,

28:30

whatever you need to Doc. Yeah. Because

28:32

then I think it's helpful for them to realize, like, I know, your dog is scratching, sometimes during TV time in the evening, but the ears really on fire, like your dog is really uncomfortable. So, for me, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, please come early. Don't come late. But if you come late, that's okay to just show up. It's not gonna get better. Yeah. Okay. So I also would like to get kind of like, tips from from you Dr. results on like, because I know some ear infections can be prevented, right? Some, some dogs are just going to kind of deal with it more often than others, even though we can prevent some of them. So what are like Do you have your kind of your top tips for pet owners for preventing ear infections?

29:27

So I'm gonna see, it's hard to prevent only because back what I said at the beginning, the majority of the time when a dog gets an ear infection is because they have an allergy. Yes. So it's important. So that's what we call the primary cause of the ear infection. If your bed tells you there's a yeast infection or bacteria, but that's secondary to the allergy. So how do we prevent we got to Stop that allergy. So if you're allowed allergy, don't feed your pet what it's allergic to. And so your pet, so I'm gonna get that allergy anymore. So your vet may say, hey, I need to do a diet trial to figure out what is causing your pet to get ear infections. And that may be hard for some clients to understand that, oh, my dog is eating something God, it's causing an ear problem. It's hard. Like they may understand their dog being itchy on their skin, but on the bite in their ear,

30:28

it's almost impossible. I would think for them. It doesn't make any sense right to my ear.

30:37

And some dogs will just have ear problems, they will have no skin problem, but it's your problem that is due to the food. So I guess provincia would be he left my bed figure out the allergy so that the ear infection doesn't come back. Now, dogs that have environmental or pollen allergy Hello, Florida. Yeah, harder. That's, that is a little harder, because we gotta figure out how to manage the allergy, so that your dog doesn't keep getting ear infections? Yeah, no, the I guess another to add to all that. And I had mentioned it earlier, where clients think, Oh, they got their dog is swimming a lot. They're getting water in your ear, they feed their dog, they got water in the year. Those are not really primary causes. It's not a thing. Oh, no, they're, I mean, I'm not gonna say that. Your dog got dirty water. And it's your, you know, maybe dirty lake water or dirty grooming water. Dirty ear cleaner. And he got an infection. But the majority of the time, it's because your dog's ear was probably already made in flames because of the allergy. We went through I mean, got it moist in there and doesn't meet a nice little or embedment.

32:06

Even now a lot of clients come in and say, Oh, I know what happened. I did. I went to the lake. And now I have an affair. I know it's my fault. I just they still believe rightly or wrongly that water is the is the cause of no moisture is the cause of all these

32:20

problems. Well, but I think it's nuanced is what is what you're saying is,

32:24

of course, I mean, yes. Or a situation that was already Yeah, exactly. And

32:29

I tell clients all the time, like I have a favorite cleaner. Right, it has no alcohol in it. It's it's lovely smelling it, it's cheap. And I tell clients who have dogs that swim a lot or, you know, in Florida, we do everything outdoors, everything with water, because we have it. Like if you take your dog on the boat, if your dog swims, etcetera, flip their ear up, and you know, dump some of this cleaner in there, massage it around, and you're finished. And it does seem to prolong the interval in between actual ear infections. But I don't think that the ear infection that results in a coincidental timeline with such water activity is a single factor. I think it's a multifactorial thing, but all that we see because we can't see what's going on in the ear canal time. All we see is that oh, they got in water. Now they have an ear infection. But I do think that cleaning them with an appropriately recommended ear cleaner helps. I think it can flush out something that was going to bloom or whatever. Right there. And so yeah, so because again, it's a nuanced thing. So it's tricky for for owners who are like, Look, man, I just want my dog not to have an ear infection. Yeah, that's what I want. Yeah. So we had to do many things. Yeah,

33:59

and for dogs that are a Tofig or have environmental allergies are prone to getting ear infections then like a weekly ear cleaner, like I would recommend weekly air cleaner. And I think that helps flush out allergens that can be getting in the ear or maybe there is a little fight or infection starting and moves it out. And I think it keeps a lot of these dogs under control.

34:24

Okay, so that gets to like the thing that I hear all the time so I cringe Do you ever have clients come in and tell you that they clean their dog's ear with like vinegar I feel Yeah. Side alcohol that when

34:40

I cringe I mean three vinegar I will cringe but I don't think there's too much harm and like half like you know half water have vinegar. Heiser II. Yeah. That may be a little

34:54

well you got sometimes when a client says vinegar, you can just imagine just holding to here Gotta clean it. Right? I mean, people, are they just trying to do what's best for their dog?

35:05

Right? They are. And the internet is full of all of these different things. And I'm like, you know, it's so cheap to just get an ear cleaner from your vet. It's like, it's almost as cheap as the bottle of vinegar that you're buying that could be destroying, or somehow inflaming the canal if you don't mix it right, sir. So like, just don't risk it, man. It's cheap enough, get one that's recommended and use it. And there's tons of them out there. Right. But when they're cleaning that year? What like, what do you tell? Do you tell them like stick a Q tip in there like you do your own year? Or like, what are you telling owners to do?

35:45

They're not supposed to stick a cute tip in your own ear, either. Dr. Jen,

35:50

I'm just saying like, Look, I've just looked at me all kinds of stuff. I

35:55

know people do. Like,

35:59

well, I don't, I don't want to presume like I want to educate all of us right now. Dogs are different. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Right. So yeah.

36:11

I, the way I tell clients is to apply the ear cleaner into the ear. So they're kind of flooding that ear canal with the solution and I have a little model will show them and and then you massage. Yeah, it was saw the ear canal. And that's gonna sort of mix that solution with the debris in the ear, the pet typically is going to want to shake their head, which is awesome. Because the latest kind of all that comes out. You know, make sure you're doing this in a room that you don't mind,

36:50

close your mouth, close your mouth, close your mouth.

36:55

And, and then just getting a little cotton ball or preferably those little soft gauze and just wrap it around your finger and just go in there and clean it. No Q tip, no. Anything in there. God forbid you go down too far, and you hurt the eardrum, which kind of would be hard because as we know, a dog's ear canal is an owl kind of L shaped does not like us.

37:22

But you can jam is really hard in that in that junction. And you're

37:29

right. Yes. Yeah. So so

37:33

that's really close. I tell people a good idea is that if you can't see it, don't stick it past there. Right? Yeah, right. That's a good one. Yeah, you know, we may

37:43

be a little they have all these little grooves and crevices here will be the little q tip can help with that. But um,

37:50

because that's the case when you can just kind of ride right all the way through one of the cleanest ears ever.

37:57

And for those of you who are listening to us on one of the directories, go to our YouTube channel, because we are put, we're going to have video over this that kind of describes what we're talking about when you're looking at the ear canal. And what you want to avoid and why you really should use your finger like she's recommending, because you can stick your finger very far down in there. And so you know, but don't stick a Q tip where you can't see it. Don't stick a Q tip down into your dog's ear canal. Because you're going to create a bigger mess for us as the veterinarians and you're gonna hurt your dog. Yeah, and if you've been doing it wrong, until now it's okay. It's okay. You could do it better now. Yeah, and all those years. All those ear cleaners are made to help break up that debris. So that when you're doing that your massage, your it's like a washing machine, right? It's like it's like, breaking up, and then the dog flings it out because that's why they shake their head is to fling it out. Yes. I like

38:59

that description. The washing machine.

39:03

All right, I got one. I got one part, right, because we've seen time

39:07

producers who stole that from me. But

39:11

indeed, maybe. Yeah. And so I do because I do think it's a struggle for owners. So I'm, I'm so glad to, to hear that, like, allergies contribute. And I took that nugget for those of you who are listening, my head exploded. And another episode where Dr. rosellas dropped some knowledge in the chat room about the only thing that your dog may present with when they have a food allergy may be chronic ear infections, right. So now, yeah, right. I was like, Wait, what is happening? And so now when I see that dog for that third ear infection inside of, you know, two months or something I'm like, I think we should talk about food. And the clients are like, yeah, what bacon what we start that, you know that diet trial to try to try to get rid of that. So it is an allergy and in Florida with the pollen in the ears, it can be seasonal. But let your met Yeah, you let your vet explore what's causing it, and how we can stop it from happening. Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. Okay, so next question is when because mostly we treat the ear topically, right. So treatment for ear infections. Because we've talked about signs. We've talked about causes. We talked about diagnostics with that cytology. We've talked about prevention. But so now when do we use kind of topical because I usually use topical treatment topical, where we drop it in the ear. But when do you use systemic antibiotics or? Or do you?

41:03

Yeah. So for otitis externa, so the external part of the ear, the ear canal, really, the best thing is topical, it's just going to the medications just going to concentrate, they're better to treat the infection. Systemic. So oral medications like well, antibiotics are unlikely to concentrate there, well, I'm not going to say the cans, you vet would probably have to use pretty high doses of that antibiotic to get in there. So you know, when I've had some really tough chronic ear infections where I don't think the topical is working, then then I might add on a systemic but nine times out of 10, your bed is just going to do a topical, okay, that should work if you're applying it properly. So again, going back to what we talked about taking that pain away, taking the inflammation, putting enough drops to get down that ear canal, I think that's a big one, because a little poodle is gonna be treated with different amount of drugs. Great. So let's keep that in mind.

42:15

It's okay. It's okay. If I have to send him two bottles of medication to get through the thing because I wanted to be stingy like owners. Don't be stingy. Put the medication in. Yeah, yeah.

42:28

So you might see that difference or why your vet sending you with like, like some of my big dogs, the four bottles like they're in there, these unfortunately, it's not like, these pharmaceutical companies are making these giant bottles a year minutes for us, they are tiny. And so when your vet says 10 drops, it's 10 drops versus a little poodle might need four drops. So there's there's a difference, but that's important. Yeah, the topical. And then the only other time I will use systemic antibiotics if it's maybe a middle ear infection or an inner ear infection.

43:05

So that's when they have the head tilt their head

43:09

tilt or logical signs. So Right. So those are much more serious. And another big topic discussion. Yeah, yes.

43:19

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. So my kind of my a little bit. My last question is, so how important is it? I think, you know, like, you know, this, how important is it to treat for the full amount of time that your veterinarian is recommending? Oh,

43:38

gosh, yes. Super important to report. And typically, we I like to see my patients back in two weeks, maybe three weeks just because I referral so it's hard for some clients to come more often. But yeah, you need to treat till your vet sees your pet back and you they re examine the air in proper treatment, is one reason why you might see recurrent infection because the air is just not completely treated well. And it's another reason why we see resistant bacterial infections. So that's a big one, because we're not treating it for the full length. Of course,

44:23

that goes along with the full amount. Right, that also ties in Yeah, pull them out for the full length of time. You'll be back there again, right?

44:31

Yeah. So you know, like a pet with a skin infection and you treat with antibiotics, the right dose for the right length of time, and it has to get rechecked again to make sure all that infection is gone.

44:45

So the other the other thing that people do, when they come in is they'll say, Oh, I just had them groomed. The groomer did it right, like the dog was fine and the groomer did

44:55

groomers they get blamed for less sometimes, right, at least sometimes wrongly said Now a lot of

45:00

times to they'll come to me and say the groomer found this and said I should to be seen, which I love. Yeah, that happens. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, who's your groomer, I want to send them a gold star in the mail. Right? Because so when group so it's, do you think it's inappropriate when a dog's getting groomed? For groomers to pluck the hair out of the ears? If there's a lot of hair in the ear? And or to maybe put some of that appropriate ear cleaner in the ear after the bath? What do you think about that?

45:36

Do I think it's appropriate?

45:40

Or Okay, or should they never do it?

45:42

I think, yeah, I think for some of these dogs with the laughter here, and there, you're, it's okay to kind of trim that it should be done gently. So I can see where if it's aggressively plucked, where that can cause some inflammation. And if they can get their ear clean, kind of normal. I think a dog that has tendencies to get ear infections because of their allergy, then I do like having that hair removed, because I think it just locks things in there. Again, not that I think the hair is causing the erection, letting airmen it's just so you guys are seeing an another nuance there. It's blocking, it's not letting the ear get clean, too well. So I do think I do like the hair removals. And sometimes we'll see some doodles and they'll come in for us to just kind of gently pluck those hairs out for them.

46:41

So and same here. Same here, like when I treat them, we clean them. And a lot of times if they're really bad. I don't know why those doodles doodles poodles that they have all that hair in there. We will we will gently and it takes a minute, right? So hey, give your vet a minute to pluck that hair out gently because we don't just rip it all out. Right? We gently pull it out so that the dog hopefully is not uncomfortable. The skin is not on fire. And then we're able to really, really get them cleaned and flushed, and the hair doesn't hold moisture in there. You know, that sort of thing? So yeah. Again, it is nuanced. It's not the only cause. Yeah, so right. So Dr. Jason, do you do you get many ear infections?

47:29

Do I personally get many infections? I'm actually really good about cleaning my ears. So I don't think I've ever had. But I'm glad you asked. That's, that's really good. Do I get dogs that have you infections? Of course everybody does. It's not. It's not uncommon by any stretch of the imagination. So but all of this stuff is great to hear that I was doing everything 100% Right. I'm sorry that you obviously weren't but I was as natural by the experts. So I'm naturally keep stay the course here so

48:01

naturally. Yes. All right. So any other thing that you wish every pet lover knew about yours and their pet doctor was Salas? Any other? Girl?

48:15

Yeah, so a big one. I'm glad you asked. I guess the big one, which you've guys, we've already been talking about that. It's not normal for a dog to keep getting ear infections. And sometimes I'll hear that from clients like oh, that's like three ear infections a year and it's just it is that's not normal at all. So back to there's an underlying cause typically an allergy. My big one, and this is for specially pet owners who have like French cheese brachiocephalic dog. So French cheese pugs, English Bulldogs. They normally their ears are normally already narrowed, their ear canals are narrowed. And, and again because everything is squished in their head. And if they get an ear infection, that narrows that your canal even more, and just imagine years of ear infections, that canal is just closing down. And again, because I'm referral and I probably see the worst of the worst I see. A lot of breeki Savalas have had years five years six years all their lies in ear infections. And now they come to me and they want to get this solved. And and I can't anymore and many of them because the ear canal has reached a point we call end stage where the canal just completely shuts down and wish I had a model and stories that we talked about are important to open up the ear won't do it anymore because the ear canal has scarred and closed down. And so pet owners veterinarians who see the first time your infections on these breakers of bollocks Like, cannot ignore it need to work them up for their allergies. So years down the road. And sometimes it isn't years down the road, it could be a year later, they don't end up with an McG or that we can't fix medically anymore at that point, it's a surgical fix. And it's a really tough conversation to have with, with clients. So we have to be more proactive, really about year. We really do. Especially in those kinds of brains,

50:29

we'll get the word out about the allergies, for sure. Because that doesn't, you know, it makes perfect sense when you talk about it. But it's not the first thing people think of it just is not. And it's a little bit of a conversation to have. So

50:42

it is but it's the same skin that's all over their body. It's just wrapped around a little tube and stuck. And so you can imagine that, you know, it's just a bacterial party

50:54

when you're when you put it that way. It's super easy. Doctor. who you are.

51:00

Yeah, the ears and extension of the skin?

51:03

Yes, yes. Okay. Well, I thank you for once again, dropping serious knowledge on us in the chat room. We always love it, because it's always so. So common sense. So applicable for pet lovers. It's just like, oh, well, that makes sense. Yeah, I'm gonna start doing that. And everyone listening. If you don't do anything, do this one thing. Go to your vet. Sooner rather than later. groomers and kennel folks keep flipping those ears up and looking and encouraging owners to get them seen right away. Because we can do something about that we have the technology. And so we and we would love to. So yeah, so Dr. Jason anything else for Dr. Salas? Yeah,

51:53

Dr. Rush Alice is better but acquitted, or she's gonna put herself out of business is all right. Quit dropping all this fantastic knowledge.

52:03

I know. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. Well, we hope that you'll visit us again, and we thank you so very much for coming. So yeah, so yeah, I guess that's it. I'm Dr. Jen, the vet

52:17

to Jason and we'll see you guys on the next episode.

52:22

This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strengths supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses,

52:32

Merck animal health, a leader and ODAC treatments for over 25 years.