Ep 45: Revolutionizing Veterinary Medicine: Exploring the Benefits of Mucosal Vaccine Technology

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This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses,

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Merck animal health, the makers of Nobivac vaccines. 

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Hello, and welcome to chats with the Chatfields. This is a podcast expand your idea what impacts veterinarians, pet owners, and basically all animal lovers in the galaxy as humans. We are your hosts. I'm Dr. Jen the vet. 

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And I'm Dr. Jason. 

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And if you have not yet subscribed to our show, 

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Just go to Chatfieldshow.com And subscribe today. And if you want to reach us, and you've got a message full of love and positivity, you can reach me at Jen@Chatfieldshow.com

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and for everybody else, you can reach me at Jason@Chatfieldshow.com.

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Okay, no messing about we're gonna get right into it. Today, we have a great topic for everybody. And we have Well, like I mean, I don't know if there's any bigger expert on this in the world. But a friend of the show and our personal friend, Dr. Amy stone, is joining us today. Yes,  for those of you who are, I should say as yet uninformed. She's a clinical associate professor at the University of Florida's College of Veterinary Medicine. And not only that she's a chief. A chief of what? The chief? Yeah, Chief of what that's your next question. She is the dentistry Service chief at the University of Florida as well as primary care, Chief. So she's the double chief. Yeah, Dr. Stone. Welcome back to the chat room. Thanks so much for coming back. 

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Absolutely. And I missed you guys. 

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Oh, that's so nice. We love it when the guest butters of the hosts Hey, no, but today, we wanted to talk about something that I think is well, I know for a fact is right up your alley. We want to talk about all of these vaccines these days. Yep. Spoiler alert. We're talking about vaccines. But why? It seems like every time I turn it around, we have another oral one or we have an intranasal one, or we have a I don't know, drop it in the eyeball. vaccine for our chicken friends out there. You know, vaccines aren't just injected anymore. And so we thought who better to bring on then someone with a PhD in immunology? Right. And that's, that's, that's you?

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Well, I mean, that's certainly not me. That's not a big shock there.

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No, no. Yeah. The

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other thing I did that really endeared me to the mucosal immune system, which is how we get all these oral and intra nasal and eye vaccines in is that I did my postdoc working on an air virulent salmonella, that we then put in jeans from dental pathogens, so human dental pathogens. Oh, and gave it orally to mice. Oh, yeah. So

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what was the purpose of that? You got to like, connect the dots for us? Yeah, you

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guys are like, Oh,

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whiteboard,

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talking? No,

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I could do I have I have my, um, so I was actually shutting the dog up.

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Turn them off. I mean, try that all the time. It didn't work.

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I mean, sometimes it works. I guess. Um, but basically, we were trying to get the mucosal immune system is one of the very oldest parts of our immune system. So like, some of you veterinarians know, there is parts to our systemic immune system where we have antibodies produced in one side, and we have cell mediated immunity. So cells work on things on the other side, but we also have an innate immune response. It's ever there before we're even born. The mucosal immune system is larger than our systemic immune system. And it has all of those things as well. So one of those things that makes it really cool is that because it's one of the oldest things, it recognizes certain things as definitely bad. So it recognizes things like salmonella, rabies, things like that as bad things. So when we put it in a salmonella that doesn't actually cause disease, the immune system, take that in and then make a response to, hopefully the periodontal pathogens.

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Okay, so we're treating like, you guys, we're using that to train the immune system to recognize those pathogens. Yeah. And to get them off. Yeah. Because otherwise they wouldn't and then the the infection could take hold, and then you'd have a problem, right?

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Okay. infection and inflammation, right? Which go hand

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in hand in general. Okay, so that makes sense. So I have to stop for just a second here. Jason, do you remember all that from immunology from vet school? In a in a Okay, like, do you remember the words? Do you remember the stuff words? Yeah,

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I've heard those words many times. Yes. But do I remember what they mean? Wow. You know? Not really? No, like, there's a lot of big words, I think it's

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much, it's so much to know. And so when when you say an eight, I think of something that's just innate, like, it just doesn't have like a large, higher functioning brain, right? It just sits there.

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I mean, it doesn't just sit there, but it's very protective, when you don't have an immune system yet. When you don't have all that stuff, all those big words. It's things like mucus, its thing things like the cilia, those little hairs in your, you know, set in your digestive tract and your respiratory tract that keep pathogens from being able to get in mechanically,

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if you Okay, so so. So all the phlegm all the like post nasal drip, all the stuff that I've been dealing with the last two weeks here in Florida, that is part of my innate immune system. Okay, so the same, the same for my dog, or my cat, right? That mucus that coats everything, because that's a barrier, right? It's just a barrier to entry. Okay.

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And most of those things are barriers. There are some cells that do some stuff, too. But I don't want to get that far into it. But there are some cells that are exist there that basically like Pac Man, they just come in and start chewing on stuff. They don't necessarily at that level, communicate with a lot of other things. But they just come in and say, Oh, you're not supposed to be here. I don't really.

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That's the general public's idea of how the immune system works. Like I'm not entitled percent right like that. You have these cells that see something bad and they eat it. That's it. That's why it'll die. Right? It's part of it. Yeah. So well, it just helped bolster those Pac Man.

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That's why your newborn baby doesn't die. Right.

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I mean, always helpful. And but I also I think it's worth mentioning like that. Like, there's that layer, right? Like that's, I guess, the infantry, right, like, there's that layer that just gobbles up whatever is foreign. And then there are some other really cool ones. And I think we learned a little bit about some of that sort of, during COVID. Because there there's, there's other components, like there's cellular components, and they do stuff like paint a target on stuff, right?

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So there's cellular components, like those things you're talking about, they paint targets, they deliver they PacMan up that stuff, and they deliver that stuff to other cells that can then send messages to the whole body saying, Don't let this in. Oh, so so

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they put the word out? Yeah. Okay. All right, that's very

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helpful. Yeah, because apart, if you put something in the nose, it can send a message to the eye, it can send a message to the mouth, it can send a message to the lungs. So it not only can send a message systemically through the body, but it can communicate with other mucosal surfaces. You know, that sort of, you know, message system, if you will.

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Okay, so that's mind blowing. All right. Okay, so So for talk, okay, let's go back to regular here. So we're talking about the immune system. And we're talking about how do you stay alive? Because constantly pathogens are trying to get in and produce a problem, right. So all of this is ongoing constantly. And that's just, that's just random. I mean, that's just constantly in the background, random attacks on your system. It's fighting against. Okay, so now when we talk about vaccines, we talk about kind of giving the, the immune system a leg up, like a forewarning that this is a bad pathogen, so that they're prepared, right with I mean, if we're using like a military analogy, right, we paint targets, we gobble them up, we present them to others, so they can get the Intel and spread it to the rest of the army. Right. Okay. All right. And so, so then we enter with vaccines, all right, but first, I gotta wait like a backup one more second. We did talk about the newborn newborn creature. Okay, I wouldn't say baby, let's just say newborn creature of any car. Because it could be a puppy. Kitten could be a person. When they're first born to they haven't they have an immune system obviously do.

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Okay? And so very sophisticated yet, but they do. Okay.

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So what happens?

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They're born, they're born that as they develop, couple of things happen, those cells start being more produced, because they're, you know, increasing in maturity, just like every other thing that we have matures, but also they're being exposed to things and their bodies being able to say, okay, hey, I don't that's not good. Let's remember that. Okay, this other thing here, not good. Let's remember that and they're getting vaccinated. So, assuming you're a baby, or a newborn or a young creature, that is in a first world country, um, then you're getting vaccinated

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Okay, so it's learning it's learning is taking in all that information and that's what we talked about we say you have a mature immune system or an immature immune system right it can learn it has been taught so it's like graduated high school right

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thing you get it presumably fed you yeah and I'm transferred some of those messages to you which can help you in the beginning when your immune systems not awesome. Keep an eye out before your you've got it together if you wouldn't,

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and that's like from colostrum about or first milk I think some people call it right so that's what you're getting from that from from that is that yeah, that immunity to some things already.

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Do I tend to think of the colostrum and from the mom as as soldiers more than messages? Is that wrong? Like I think so that's why we always say as they decrease you know, you got to increase it with the vaccines. That's why you have that kind of weird chart your your soldiers work. Yep. So yeah. fighters to kind of help you out. Yep. Yeah. Okay. If

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you don't get those, you can be in a hard, hard way. Unless somebody realizes you didn't get those and starts vaccinating you

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early. Okay. Okay. All right. So we're gonna take a break, folks, don't worry, we're coming back. We're not finished, because this is the tip of the iceberg. But we are going to get to, like, like, what can we do with that information? Right, like, what can we do with understanding that

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information? There was a ton, dropping a ton, that's

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gonna happen. I know. I know. Okay. Well, the fast pace is gonna keep up folks, so hang out. We'll see on the other side. 

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Merck animal health is committed to disease prevention in our animal companions. The nobivac portfolio of industry leading vaccines, empowers veterinarians to have a broader impact on pets and their owners. Merck Animal Health's Philosophy is driven by innovation, Continuous research and development ensure the latest technological advances are available to provide reliable protection. So ask your veterinarian about Nobivac vaccines for your pets. 

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Dr. Jenn the vet, and I'm here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Keith latson, he's got an incredibly interesting story all about full bucket health,

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my college roommate and vet school, housemate, Dr. Rob Franklin and I were collaborating on some cases, both of us were struggling with diarrhea in some of our patients, whether it was after a procedure or after, after an illness. So we created a formulation. But we didn't want to just create a formulation. We also wanted to create a movement and animal health, for being able to help animals in need, through the use of bar products that we developed that really has resulted in our one for one giving program, which we're we're really proud of, as much as we are our formulations for dogs versus cats.

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Okay, so we're back. And hope you caught your breath there. chatterboxes because, doctor, stone naturally the ground ready guys for the EU? I

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mean, like,

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all right, yeah. Okay, so so so let's just recap very quickly, because we are going to talk about vaccines, because to me, this is one of the most exciting pieces, but we got to get everybody on the same page.

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First of all, do you think Usain Bolt is gonna listen to our podcast?

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If you do, send it out to him. If I'll tag him, we'll tag it. Yeah.

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He gets it. That's how that's how social media works. If if you're

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listening, you saying drop us a line. Okay. Okay, so we have an immune system. And it's got two different components we have innate, which you start out with when you start life. And then we have what we call the other one, the adaptive

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adaptive, yeah. Okay. Now, when you're talking about the mucosal portion of it, it gets a little more hairy than that. But yes, we'll

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go away. Okay. So you have innate, which is just stuff that you have no matter what, and then you have adaptive. And that's the part that is learning. Well, I guess it's all learning from the time that you get exposed to the world. And so what does that have to do? Okay, so, this is what happens. Here's the conversations that happen for me. When you come in, people come in with a puppy people come in with an adult dog, it doesn't matter. And I say great. We're doing good eating, drinking, you know, poop and pee and running around. We're gonna boost vaccines today or We're gonna initiate the first set for puppies, or kittens. And so we're gonna give some injections. And then oh, by the way, I'm gonna put one up the nose, I have an intranasal vaccine for you. And I usually get this like, what? Why is that? Why is that? Okay, so it seems like to me, there's more and more of that happening. Right wish? Well, I mean, in the last, in the last five years in the veterinary market, we've had what, at least two orals make the market we've had a couple of inter nasals. And so it is more

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in a way? Yeah, we're not we're not increasing as many pathogens is that like, that's true. Okay. Dancing around the same ones. But

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yeah, so So let's so let's start with that. Right. So. So number one, why why would I as a veterinarian, why, like, why is a pet owner? Why should a pet owner be asking? Number one for an intranasal vaccine for their dog versus just injectable?

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So, in terms of this is kind of how I explained it to a client, when they say to me, I absolutely don't want to put that in my dog's nose, say, Okay, if we use something that we inject into the skin, we are expecting your dog's immune system or your cat's immune system to have to figure it out, and then find it. If we put it on the mucosal surface, we have a shot at never letting it in there at all. Okay, letting it into the body at all. Right? And that is on the surface. And that makes

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perfect sense. Thanks, COVID. Right, like I think everybody now got like a life lesson. And why that? Why is that make sense? Right, because we got a got a shot in the arm, or wherever they put put your shot. But we could still get mild disease from a respiratory pathogen or respiratory virus like COVID. We just didn't get as sick because our body had to figure it out once it entered, and then get rid of it. Right.

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And St. We should have known this. It should have been true by flu. We should have known this because we've all gotten flu vaccines and then gotten a little bit sick at some point. And

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Jennifer's holding your breath to try not get too, too off the deep end here. But yes, it should have been done. It probably was too I think people that understood immunology knew this from the get go. Yes. So that made it to the mainstream knowledge is a whole different conversation.

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Yeah. Yes. And, and especially we were talking about flu, okay, but All right, so let's not let's not digress yet.

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I'm so proud of you.

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Thank you is first of all grown up here, folks. You didn't wait. Did we hear it? No. No, you did not hear me drag my soapbox out yet? Oh, no. Yeah, no. Yeah. I see the biggest AVS like Oh, put it away? Not yet.

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I wasn't saying we're not allowed to wait one.

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Okay, all right. So, okay. So, so now, okay, so putting giving an intranasal or mucosal, right? Because we put it on the mucous membrane, mucosal vaccine then I don't have to deal with my body doesn't have to deal with the infection it just doesn't ever get in. So

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it does sound better, but how does that how does putting it up the nose keep it from getting in? How does that can

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you can say IgA, Dr. Stone, you can say IgA,

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okay? Good bye.

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So, so the cells that are in the mucous layer, and just below the epithelium and below of the, so the, the mucosal actual skin, if you will, or the mucosal layer has these really cool cells that basically can grab stuff and figure it out and push it out just based on a the fact that it's there and B. Anytime it's had something that's even similar, it's made an antibody called IGA. And in this case, it's Secretory IgA so it gets into that layer, and it can basically shut stuff down pretty quick.

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Okay, so I like YouTubers, you're about to see my favorite way to demonstrate or illustrate this concept because IGA is one of my new superheroes. Is anyone familiar with a slip and slide?

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I mean, who's not? Who's not?

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Right. Okay. And so right now, you're probably seeing a slip and slide on the YouTube because if the kid is symbolizing any pathogen virus, bacteria toxin, and the slip and slide is a mucosal layer that has been armed with it with the mucosal vaccine. Then what that IGA does It is lit that kids keep on sliding, it doesn't get to evade. And to add

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to that, if you have a Secretory IgA, which is different than the other antibodies in yourself, yes, then so the kid is on the slip and slide. But when the dog gets on the slip and slide the dogs gonna slide off too, because IGA molecule, unlike other antibodies is not quite as on adaptable, right? So isn't just so specific for that one message, it can actually say, that's a that's a thing I don't want. It's a little different than that other thing. But I'm still gonna get it. I

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still don't want it.

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Or an adult, this is a little one, this is a dog. Nothing's getting there. No soup for you. Right,

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exactly. And I think I saw so I saw a really interesting way to talk about that. Is that like, how, how does the body recognize that? And so because the coronation of the King just occurred? I'm going to use this example. Like, so if if your system is the palace? No, like, the palace guards don't know, every single, like, every single palace guard doesn't know every single person who's supposed to be there. Because there's, you know, hundreds if not 1000s of people, right? But they do recognize someone, someone's not supposed to be there, right? They like they stand out, right? You're like, yeah, you're not supposed to be here. So they don't actually have to recognize the name of that individual to know, dude, you're not supposed to be here, go this way. And then the other thing they could do is they can cross link the pathogens. And so you can say, Hey, you three little kids who weren't supposed to be in this room. Everyone hold hands. And the guard holds a hand. And it's easy to take them right out, you can recognize them is not supposed to be there. And so I think that that's what why I find the the IGA and the mucosal immunity, so fascinating. Okay, so we have a slip and slide happening in the nose, which I also think lends itself because everything runs out of your nose. So, so that's one way. Okay, so that seems really prudent, right? That seems really prudent that you would want to get a mucosal the administered vaccine, because then you don't have to deal with any clinical signs?

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Well, you're going to potentially have to deal with some clinical signs, but you're not going to deal with the dangerous ones. Okay, reason you're going to have to do that is in many cases, the thing that we're putting up the nose is actually a very weakened version of whatever it is we're trying to fight. And so the body may say, Oh, let me do some of the things that I would normally do to get rid of this thing. And so you may notice some sneezing, you may notice some coughing for a short period of time. That's nothing compared to the pathogen that you're trying to fight against. Right? And so, again, that's, that's a small price to pay, if you will, okay,

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an initial small immune response to prevent a much larger, more uncomfortable, sometimes deadly, bigger immune response. And that's what the mucosal intra nasal vaccine. Really does. Is that correct? Yep. Or slip inside in order sort of a one works for you. Right. So

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if your slip and slide starts, you know, having some extra water or something, same kind of go. Yeah,

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exactly. Exactly. Okay. So, so then the next inevitable question is, well, then why are we giving any shots of any kind? Right? Like, isn't that Jason? Isn't that what you're thinking? Like? Yes, it

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is. 100%? I don't like the shots. No,

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there's a few things, did a few things that that are hard to get by. Because remember how we talked about this as a barrier? Well, sometimes we don't do a very good job of sorting out what can get in there, what can go past the immediate upper layer and get the body to respond. Like okay, sometimes the the epithelial barrier or that mucosal skin, if you will, sometimes the crosslinks is so tight, that it never allows something to go even further so that we get communication between all the different surfaces. Okay, it works. Yeah, it works too. Well. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it works too well. So then it doesn't give you any sort of protection other than right now, right? That didn't get a nobody wants to bring their animal in for a mucosal vaccine every three months. No, that's not fun. So the other thing is, if you think about it, we eat lots of stuff. We breathe in lots of stuff. We have bacteria, a vast majority of our body, fortunately, grows to think about is made up have bacteria? Yes. And so our cells figure out that that's not a problem. They deal with these commensal or, you know, friendly bacteria all the time and don't react to it. Right? Well, in waking a vaccine, you have to come to a very interesting balance of whether you want to promote tolerance of that thing, or whether you want to get make the body get rid of it, because it's a slippery slope, right? So something all of us are familiar with periodontal disease, that's essentially an autoimmune response. Right? sensually where the, because if the body didn't care about these things, we wouldn't care. I tell my students, it's not about the calculus, it's gross, and it smells. It's about the gingivitis. And that's the response to the bacteria. If they never made the gingivitis, we wouldn't be having this conversation. So you kind of have to come up with you have to be very good at what you do to make a truly effective vaccine in the in the modern world that we expect to keep pathogens away for an extended period of time. Or not to then tell the body Hey, this is this is good. Let's just pretend it's not there. And keep moving. So and sometimes you can use that. Yeah, in to do other things. But and sometimes you can even use the that that immune system that the prime to pick up things like cancer cells, get rid of them. You can do all of those things. But you have to be very, very good at what you do. You have to be very creative about making your vaccine. Yeah, and I think I think

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any vaccine is pretty phenomenal. We just take it for granted. But the idea that we're putting something in I mean, it doesn't matter to me if it was if it's a rabies vaccine that they did forever. It's just really, really incredible technology is awesome. And

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for those of us that study it though, that you put something in a syringe and you put some stuff with it, and you inject it into the skin. Okay, yeah, it's fine.

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Take away the magic. All right.

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Bring me something else. Will you bring me something else?

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But you're right, it is cool that the immune response works at all, that vaccines work at all? Well, if we didn't have them, we would be much. Well, I

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know I actually this is way off topic. But I was actually talking about you people that understand it at a cellular level that I can't even see it, the fact that you know what's going on is pretty far out like it's pretty crazy. Dumb it down to talk about slip and slide, give me a break, right, there's a whole lot more happening there that you guys spent. That's just great. So so it's just fantastic.

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If you saw my dining room now, there's a lot of books around here that are Yeah.

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Like, well, and that's the thing, like, that's why we we wanted you to come on to talk about this topic, in particular, because it very quickly can become really complicated. Because of the number of cells, what what they can do, what they don't do, and what they do together, that they you know, in any way just becomes a mess. And all of that becomes important when we're talking about putting a biologic in our pet. Because that the immune system can do wonderful things, or it could kill you, right, like so. So you really do, you really have to be careful. And that's I think that what you're getting at with like, it's a fine line, there's a balance, because you can abuse that immune system and have it become a weapon against the body. Or you can lightly guide it to be even better at protecting that body. And so when we do it every day, we do it all day, we do it so many times a week, we just take for granted that incredible technology, that's a negativity vial that we draw up into a syringe with or without a needle. And then and then give to a creature all in the name of not only helping that creature, but then also providing a wall of protection for the family. Right? Because that's the other thing.

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So if we're Dr. Jason, if we're going to even back up further get less tiny, if you think about vaccines being able to be used to for everyone. So in terms of being able to provide care for everybody, all the animals, all the people, that mucosal vaccine is so much easier to administer. You don't have to have anybody who's good at it. You know, you can just get it in the right if you if it's the right pathogen, the right vaccine, you can get in the right area. They're dropping cholera vaccines and bananas. Right. Yeah.

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You know, I know what you were saying that you just give it here and it goes everywhere. Yeah, phenomenal. So

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in so that then lends itself to the fact that we can get animals and people that couldn't be immunized previously, economically. The, or in terms of getting the vaccine to them. Right? Right. Yep. So if we could really perfect this whole HIV vaccine, think about how many people out in countries, we could save how many kids we could give immunity to from their mom, you know, all of those things we could do. If we were just able to do more with this concept, which we're trying,

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every day, you get closer every decimal point. So, you know, stuff we talked about has already been, that's why it's boring to you, because it's been done in the past, you know, like, I'm moving on to the future. What are you, who cares about this stuff, I want to talk about vaccinating gets cancer, which is such a foreign concept to me, but the way you described it makes perfect sense. I'm gonna have something floating around recognizing this bad kind of cell, get rid of it, put on this clip of slides, slide it on out of the out.

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And, and I think to what the other piece is that now we're talking about vaccines, like antibodies against arthritis, antibodies, again, especially makes sense, pain, and inflammation. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, you must be using the wrong word. How do you have an antibody to pain? Don't we all have that, like I am opposed to being in pain, right. And so I think I think all of it, you have to have that fundamental understanding of how the immune system functions at a very basic level, which is where you have the innate, and you have the adaptive, and then you have these cells that have little superpowers. And so and that's what we're getting to with, like, you know, the secretory, IGA makes the slip and slide. But the slip and slide is not effective against everything, some stuff will cling and get in. And then that's when you have the other components, right? That's when you have your IGN your IgG that people talk about.

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Yeah, and I could get way in the weeds on this. But it's also where the immune the mucosal system is even better at that than the systemic system. Because there are professional cells there that do that. They look like little octopus

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professionals, wait a minute, wait a minute, arms out. It's just business. This business, it's just business, and business is good. At the mucosal membrane. Businesses always good, right? And they,

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and they're there. And they actually can do a better job. This is why for some of you veterinarians, when we had that whole vet jet thing with the BLB vaccine, it sort of did the same idea was putting it at a place where you didn't have to advertise it real well, because it was right there, where the things are that are saying you can't come in, yeah, once they grab it, then they can talk to everybody, they can talk to other parts of the mucosal system. So your mouth can talk to your I can talk to your lungs, but it also can talk to the system can start getting those other antibodies working. We're all at the same time. And we've found so much more to that,

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like, well, that's what I think is interesting, right, like so. So there was a study where they looked at vaccinating dogs with an intranasal vaccine, and then with a parenteral, or injectable, and then they challenged them, okay, so we went, that's why we now know, if you give an intranasal vaccine for upper respiratory infection in dogs, then you have fewer clinical signs will develop, and et cetera, right, they they do better. But what they didn't know, but we're happy to discover was that even the dogs that were just given an intranasal vaccine, developed systemic immunity. So they developed that IgG for those, like, you know, virus walks out there who are saying, well, you know, so you develop IGA to keep it from slipping and sliding? What about IgG? Do you get that that robust systemic immunity? When you put it up the dog's nose? You do what they discovered was? Yes, you do.

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And not only that, but the mucosal system can actually push out a little of that IgG onto the surface with the IGA as well.

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Right. So that and I'm like, I don't, I don't think that like, that's news. I mean,

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that's, that's fairly recent, like, yeah, I didn't know that until recently. Those of us who in vet school had to hear the words help her cells. Well, we found a whole nother couple of sections to help ourselves. We even know we're there. And now we know they do some really cool stuff, you coastally that we just had no idea about Tori, so do you think

34:43

that we're going to eventually get to all mucosal vaccines? I think that you know, I think that's a question right? Yeah. So we're going to do all this this way is you're going to be kind of have to always be a combination, but maybe that maybe will develop more because of vaccines, which are just going to be better in general but still have to have some of the old We're gonna still

35:01

have to have some of the old and the reason being is that nobody wants to live rabies flying around. Nobody thinks that's a good idea, we may be able to make some sort of recombinant thing that eventually could go that way. But that's going to be way way in the future. The other thing is we put our pets in situations where they need to have a different approach. So, for instance, feline get what's called panleukopenia. It's an that fvrcp vaccine that your kitten starts getting right away. Well, the way that the protection works for that particular pathogen is IgG. And then IgM. And going down that pathway, it's not great fought through IGA right, you'll get something but you don't get it fast enough to really help that that animal that doesn't have a well developed immune system. Yeah. And we know that that injectable product was superior, like there is almost animals who got a good vaccinations as kittens. There are very, very, very few and I would challenge you to look in the literature, animals that you can prove they got vaccinated that they've ever gotten panleukopenia, right. However, the rest of that vaccine, the two respiratory pathogens, are probably better served going mucosal Lee, because that is how they work. And so you got to look at how the pathogen works. You got to look at the situations we put our animals in like shelters, rescue groups, things like that, how much are we exposing them? And how quickly and which is going to be the best for that situation? Which is, again, why vaccines are not always one size fits all? Well, I

36:45

think. Go ahead, Jen, as you say, I

36:47

think that they're also a great reminder. And what I tell everybody, before I vaccinate their pet is like no vaccine is 100% in the face of overwhelming exposure, none, which means do not think that your dog now is in a bubble, and they can go and do whatever they want. And they can lick the face of that dog that has schmutz coming out everywhere or whatever. Like it's not it doesn't work that way. It's they're better protected. But nothing is 100%.

37:14

Yep. And so that's that's kind of the rub of it, is that we're going to be constantly trying to sort this out. Yeah. And, and again, we've got some good tools, we've got some things that we figured out some different secret sauce, if you will, that we put into these, that is going to be able to make them hit the immune system in the way we want. And so I think we're gonna get better and better, my hope is that we are able to use this pathway for viruses that tend to change rapidly, like lewenza. Yes, and corona. And Corona. Yeah, okay, we could develop an intranasal vaccine for Corona, it wouldn't matter that we keep getting variants, right. As IGA can she recognize

38:05

there and recognize that because they can be cousins, and IGA still recognizes them as foreign and doesn't let them in? Right. Okay, so one of the so that, yes, so I guess, when when you're, when you're faced with it, the the Okay, so there's multiple things.

38:25

So there's a great sentence, right? No, no, I'm

38:28

impressed. I'm like, wait, where it's just

38:31

because I was I was I had like, three thoughts. Okay. I can see the Thought Bubble. Yeah. So So here's so here's So here's what's happening at the same time that we're discovering, because we are still discovering, like how the immune system works, right? I mean, you know that better than I do. We don't really know all the things. We're also discovering the interplay between pathogens. So what we're also recognizing is that the pathogens don't always party alone. And some of them in fact, don't party unless the other guy is there. Right. So I think then we're further narrowing our target and our focus with vaccines. The more we understand the interplay between different pathogens. So for instance, parents, lewenza and dogs, right now we know pair influenza is the one that like says, Hey, Mom and Dad are out of town. I'm opening the door, anyone's welcome for the party. And then you get Bordetella coming in, right? So recognizing that means we don't have to target all those other things. We can focus our vaccine and immunity efforts on a single pathogen, because without them, there's really no party. Right? So I think those two things advancing simultaneously is what gets us to, you know, galaxies changing.

39:43

And we're starting to understand more things about why certain vaccines work and certain vaccines don't, which means we can then figure out okay, these pathogens survive in the nose. These pathogens survive in the mouth. These pathogens are already really good at evading the mucus. also immune system. So they might work in terms of a much weakened version of it might work better, we won't have to give as many secret sauce molecules to get the mucosal system to see it. Bordetella, adenovirus, parainfluenza, influenza, cholera and humans.

40:18

Yep, yep. Yeah. Okay, Jason, what did you get? You had a thought, and I interrupt you with my eyes.

40:26

No, no, no, it's fine. I don't have a lot of thoughts. I am curious. And I don't know if I want to get into this sort of wormhole. But there is a thought process and I'm trying not to offend everybody, or half the people or three fours people. But there is this whole concept of fear free stuff with with internet dogs and vaccines. And I don't know exactly where they stand on intranasal vaccines, like, do you guys have to fight with your clients who have heard about for free? And I don't want to have a fear free vaccine? I'd rather have a shot to the bed, it seems to be better for the dog, or is that not not a thing? That question even makes sense.

41:03

Yes, it 100% Makes sense. In fact, on some of the forums, there have been vets that have said, you know, with that whole cat conundrum I just said, where they don't give both an intranasal and an injectable. So they were just giving the intranasal and they were having animals die from pan, Luke. So you do have to kind of come to a happy medium, but what I usually tell my clients is this mucosal vaccine has to happen once. Yeah, I don't have to give a bunch of boosters on this until next year. Yeah. So unlike the injectable ones that I'm going to have to give multiple times when your animals really young, I'm going to be able to do this once and not have to do it again. Plus, if you get good at giving them. Yeah, they're fast, you can deal.

41:54

It's really, really not. It's really not and, and I would say so I naturally am even more direct with clients who say, Oh, my God, my dog doesn't like anything out there knows, no problem. I get it. Do you want to know why? I'm suggesting it? And they'll usually ask me why? Because medically it's the best decision for your pet. It's the best recommendation I can make for them to be safe. And I I've only ever had one client that still said, Nope, not at the nose. I said, Okay. And I just documented that. Because then if they if they if their dog had a problem, and they did come down with, you know, some some clinical signs that were more significant, then at that point, well remember when I made this recommendation with all my medical knowledge, and you said, Oh, it's icky, he didn't want up his nose. This is where we are. Because again, all I can do is recommend. But yeah, but Jason, the the fear free component is a huge issue for people. And so it's when it's appropriate.

42:58

I think it's I think it's more than rhetoric that's being pushed, not necessarily the truth of the matter. Like almost everything else in the world. I just didn't know how much that really was because it does seem like you all three of us talk about like, it's no big deal. But there's a whole giant world out there that only here's another side, like, dare you do this, you're free to go against that.

43:17

Right? And there are things you can do, you know, not but but it's meant to be in this way. And I've got that piece of Vienna sausage, the dogs focused on the Vienna sausage, and in goes intranasal. And then they get the Vienna sausage, they don't care. You're like I gotta vienna sausage, like, yeah, there are way out

43:34

shout out to Vienna sausage, best trip ever.

43:37

There's, that can be something that, you know, helps them in in cases where I've had to give an oral vaccine because that's what we had. I've even put a little peanut butter on the end of the syringe, let them lick lick lick and then bounce backwards. Yeah. Yeah. And so there are ways to make it. If not fear free, a heck of a lot happier

43:58

fear. Yeah. less fearful, right? Fearless, not fearless. Because honestly, it's something else. I keep waiting for my doctor to put a sign out that says that their fear free, so that I don't have to be afraid or anxious whenever I go, because it just doesn't happen. So I do think it's important to make it as comfortable as possible for pet and owner because otherwise they're not coming back. And also I don't want to get bit. But I think recognizing that at some point, the medical the medical outcome has to outweigh that that concern

44:33

for I was actually just trying to get the medical community Dr. Stone to go ahead and get us a pill that just takes care of everything. So there's no shots, there's no at the no just for us, our pets, whatever. Just yeah until you're done. Not. I don't want to go down there. But you know, what,

44:49

are we really getting there?

44:50

I figured you would be I don't see this. Right.

44:53

So we may be looking at dissolvable things that you would play then your mouth is possibly under your tongue. Yeah, we dissolve and you don't

45:04

even have to swallow it. Man. You guys are way ahead of the game here. Good stuff.

45:09

Well, did they do that with polio? Did they have a sublingual polio vaccine?

45:12

Yeah. Yeah. If you made your tonsils taken out, you didn't respond as well to the polio shocker. Have you got polio?

45:21

We took out took out all the lymphoid tissue. Yes. shot right there.

45:24

Yeah. Yeah. And I

45:27

guess that's one thing that, I also think it's good to, like, share with people like, we think the reason that that stuff works is because in the back of your throat, and in the back of your nasal passages where that all comes together. We know there's there's patches of lymphoid tissue, there's follicular tissue, all of that. And so that's what we're whacking or what we're hitting with those mucosa administered oral or intranasal effects. Yeah, yeah. And so I mean, I think that's helpful for owners to know, too. Because then the question is, I mean, for me, why then why can't I get them all that way? But it's because Because Because life is complicated, and you can't

46:13

answer, I think we also avoid some of the systemic reactions for reactions, by doing things, mucosal Lee, but we can also cause some, right? We got to kind of also weigh those complications. I can tell you that, and I'm not targeting any particular manufacturer, but for a while, we were giving the injectable Bordetella vaccine. And I will tell you, I had way more systemic complications with the injectable than I ever have with the mucosal.

46:45

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And it and it does better. I mean, I'm sorry. It's better to give the mucosa when you came, in all situations that are more documented

46:53

anaphylaxis, I had several documented cases have gone to cytopenia. Wow, that we can't prove it. But when for animals in three months?

47:03

Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a lot.

47:05

Yeah. So I was kind of like

47:07

vaccines, you can't prove some long term results on going around there.

47:13

And that was the only thing we changed. Yeah. So yeah, I was like, I don't like this. Myself and some other people way smarter than myself. Found out that they were like, Let's not do this as to thank you. I don't want to I don't think those people

47:27

exist those people anymore than yourself. Give me a

47:31

break. Yeah. Yamamoto at the university is pretty awesome.

47:36

She matched her background based with her fingernail polish. I

47:39

don't know. I'm not sure. Hey,

47:47

you're observant.

47:47

That's right. Okay, so So if there's, if there's one thing that you wish that all pet owners knew about vaccines, mucosal or otherwise, or it could be just focused on that, however, what's the one thing that you wish that everybody knew? So you didn't have to keep saying it?

48:06

It's a heck of a lot easier to vaccinate them than it is to treat the disease.

48:09

Boom, Spoken like a true immunologist.

48:13

You're still having to fight the vaccine, I guess every day, right? Oh, yeah. Every day. Yeah, really? Way back. But why this one works versus this one. Just should I vaccinate?

48:22

Oh, yeah, every day. Okay. All right, very quickly, then, like we're like, so what disease are people? Has it like? Do what is it a specific disease, or it's just all

48:32

it's all vaccine concept of vaccines, or New Age thought process?

48:37

We just want to make money. So we want to give more and more and more vaccines.

48:43

We make way more money treating the disease friends, yeah, way more money,

48:47

more money. And when I say to them, okay, I have the ace in the hole when I'm talking to a client because I can say, well, when you get your PhD in immunology, what you want is your doctor, doctor. In the meantime, we're gonna go into what I want. I don't say quite like that. But yeah,

49:04

truthfully, though, went over a client very well, but it's true.

49:09

But when I say to them, okay, this year, I don't want to vaccinate your animal for these things, or your animal hasn't been outside in 15 years. I don't want to vaccinate for these particular things, then they start to get that I'm not trying to just push every vaccine on them every time and that's usually what wins me the respect of the owner. Some of them you're never going to

49:32

know. But I'll tell you this though, I like I'll differ from you just the hair on that. Vaccines are so safe, that like by and large. It I mean, if you're looking at risk, by and large, for most pets, not every pet for most pets. The least risk is to just continue to vaccinate like just updated every year. Do

49:59

you But I don't need to vaccinate every single cat that has been out there hadn't been outside and 15 years for leukemia. No, no, that's correct. That's correct. You know, I don't need to do that. Do I want them to have enough? ERCP? Yes, yes. I want them to have the core vaccines. Yes. But am I going to fight with this person about one more vaccine? And the guests never been outside? Yeah.

50:21

Did you see Jason's head pop up? When you said one word there? Which one? Jason? Do you want to say? Do you like Did You Know yourself? You did that? Know, when you said the word core.

50:34

Word cork and most recommended vaccines, the most dangerous

50:37

isn't just because she's on the committee that determines the core vaccines.

50:45

She teach veterinary students and it's a whole lot easier to kill, allow it to get the concept. You talk about these things every pet needs, because it's so dangerous. Yes. That

50:55

will allow it in general. The phrase is bad.

50:59

Do they raise their hands and say, Why are we giving vaccines? Because I mean, that's where it starts, right? Yeah. Occasionally, the young people are they pretty much too scared to talk.

51:09

They're not usually scared of me. And that usually it does happen. But they're not usually scared of me.

51:15

Oh, no, put your name with 100 letters, right? Talking to you. If you

51:19

put all your letters up there, they're afraid of you.

51:22

Maybe, but more than that they're afraid of their grade. And so they kind of want to learn the stuff we're putting down. What does surprise me though, is talking to vet students about you know, when I say to them, what kind of organism is Bordetella? And they just look at me and I know it's a bacteria. It's a bacteria. They don't Jr Invesco and you don't know it's a bacteria.

51:48

Yeah, I don't think I knew that. My first year, my main baby.

51:52

First year, maybe. But by the time we were in clinics, you knew

51:55

Jace by the time Yeah,

51:57

yeah. I didn't know what

51:58

when I when I say to them, you probably shouldn't take that intranasal. Bordetella and put it under the skin.

52:05

Yeah, that's a bad plan.

52:07

That's a real bad plan, right?

52:10

Yeah. Because that happens occasionally. There's accidents. Yeah.

52:14

Yeah. And that's one of the reasons I really liked Squeezy tubes. Yes, I really like being able to draw those things up in something that's not gone a needle.

52:22

Right. So that so that we don't have to worry about it. Making the mistake. Yeah, I agree. Okay, so vaccines are safe by and large. But the thing that you need everyone needs to get, according to Dr. Stone is advice from your veterinarian on what vaccines are appropriate when for your pet, and by what route? And by what route. And that's the thing we have to ask now. Right is how did you get it? No. Yeah. Love that. I love that. Well, this has been a fast and furious I felt like we were on a slip and slide Fast and Furious discussion all about crash all about like emerging technology in in vaccine administration, I guess, and your immune system and how it might function. Thank you so much, Dr. Stone, are ways to say Doctor doctor, because she is an immunology PhD. She is an immunologist, and a veterinarian, and just a great person to talk to us in a way that we can understand. So thanks for that,

53:29

which when I'm on a podcast is really saying something. So good job.

53:35

You are so funny. You are so much smarter than you let on.

53:40

So, on that note, as a boost to Dr. Jason self esteem. Yeah, I think I think that's, that's that was all like kind of all the points I went to hit Jason. Yes. Does that is that like, Did you did you get enough?

53:54

I learned a lot. That's for sure. I show you my page just got a lot of notes like normal. I learned more than I take more than I give. That's for sure. So

54:02

all right. Well, we can only do that because we have a wonderful guest. Thank you so much, Dr. Stone, Lily. All right. That's all we have for you today. I'm Dr. Jenn Novak. And I'm Dr. Jason, and we'll catch you all in the next episode. The professional Animal Care certification council or path brings independent testing and certification to the pet care services industry is your dog's daycare or boarding kennel or a groomer man by pack certified professionals don't know if you don't know you got to ask. Look for the pack emblem at your facility to make sure that your pets receiving the highest level of professional pet care because we all know it's safer and a pack your pack CE code for this episode is cc 220083.

54:54

This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health and dogs cats and horses,

55:04

Merck animal health, the makers of Novi backed vaccine