Ep 14: Them's the Rules: Bio containment? Viral escapes? What?

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, lab, containment, virus, pathogens, animals, jason, vaccines, rules, influenza, happen, veterinarians, lisa, vet, bio containment, level, pretty, talking, instance, bacteria

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This episode is sponsored by full bucket, veterinary strength supplements. Use promo code Chatfield to receive 20% off your first order from full bucket veterinary strength supplements.

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Well, welcome to chats with the Chatfields. This is a podcast to expand your idea of what impacts veterinarians, pet owners, and basically all animal lovers in the galaxy. As a human. We are your co hosts. I'm Dr. Jen the vet,

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and I'm Dr. Jason.

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And if you have not yet subscribed to our show, why not just go to Chatfieldshow.com And subscribe today. And if you want to reach us and you got a message that's full of love and positivity, you can find me at Jen@Chatfieldshow.com

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and for all other messages on more serious notes. You can reach me at Jason@Chatfieldshow.com

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Okay, so I'm excited, Jason. Hey,

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wait. Yep, great. What? What are you wearing? Oh, you could just wear that and not have you know, we have video now people are looking at it. What is that? Well, this is because like I've seen it before.

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I know because I'm so excited because today is another installment in our series of chats with the Chatfield. Them's the rules. So I wore my referee jersey

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While you're always just trying to show me up! that is super clever. So you wore a referee shirt to help because we're talking about enforcing rules. Yes,

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yes. And

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Were you ever a referee? Yes, I was you were and so were you. I was a great referee anyways,

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yes, we were zebra stripes, dynamic duo. refereeing already digressed

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two minutes into it, let's go. It's good to know what's happened and why you're wearing a zebra shirt here.

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It's true. It's true. But also I don't want to cut any time out from our guests, because I'm so excited that she had time today to talk to us. So, you know, there's a lot of people have been talking about a lot of specific rules these days and about stuff escaping places. You know what I'm talking about? Jason,

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I know what you're talking about. I'm picking up what you're laying down there. Yeah,

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yeah. So if you have been sitting at home, like many of us, maybe your neighbors, maybe your in laws, too. I'm not sure. Wondering about viruses escaping from labs and research centers.

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I think we all are, right. I mean, yeah, we always worry about we kind of make jokes about it here and there. But now it's become a little bit more front and center. I think given Yeah, 18 months or so. And

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it kind of makes me wonder about like, how often does that happen?

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Right?

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Do they get like little backpacks with like, you know, like cables and tool? I mean, how does a virus

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get together? And like, yeah, break the wall down? Or what I mean, right, what

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is good? Like, I don't even think that can I mean, they can't even reproduce on their own. How are they escaping from somewhere? Right. But we don't clearly we are unaware of how that may or may not happen. So we got to bring in someone who knows, right as always an expert. That's right. And I mean, I'm, I can't believe chatterboxes Get ready. Stop washing the dishes while you listen. Because this is going to be a podcast you're gonna want to hear our guest today is an incredible expert on the rules. The rules for for Wait, wait for it. It's a super sexy term folks. Bio containment.

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Wow. That is a that is a good word. So many times we can use that today. Yes, yes. I've already put it down. So I don't forget just FYI.

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Right, right. I don't want to know how you spelled it. So bio containment because that is the kind of the topic du jour as we move through our I thought it was post pandemic but I think it's still pandemic world. We are going to be talking with today. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Lisa chercheur, with chercheur consulting. Right. Hey, Dr. Lisa, welcome into the chat room.

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Thank you very much, but glad to be here.

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Holy moly. So we have a list of questions. We hope you're going to make us sound a lot smarter. Yeah,

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was that homework? I really wish you gotta send me a reminder. Okay, carry on. I'll get a question or two.

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Yes. So a little bit of homework there for Jason. He's going to try to catch up. But so while he's doing that, can you share with us a little bit about your background? Because I think people are unaware number one, like you're an entrepreneur, right? You're a budding entrepreneur with pircher Consulting, although you've already done some pretty, like impressive consulting efforts with your budding entrepreneurial company. But what is your background like? How do you know these rules and how to contain BIOS

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Okay, well, I'll try to give you the short version. So we're not here, you know, for 10 hours. So I started out long time ago, just like everybody else. I wanted to be a scientist. I'm just I was the nerd in school. I was the one in fourth grade when the teacher said, we're gonna cut up grasshoppers today. And everybody went, Oh, that's gross. And I went, ooh, Pick Me Pick Me. I want to do that. So that'd be

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some big shoppers, right? Yeah.

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I love just mucking it up and getting in there and looking at stuff. I just found that fascinating. So fast forward through college. I went all through that and I continued on my quest to become a scientist. And then I went to graduate school at Baylor College of Medicine down in Houston, and I was in a molecular virology program. So it's always been fascinated with viruses because viruses are the coolest things on the planet. Right? They How does something that tiny basically a nanoparticle right, cause such death and destruction? Right? How can it do that? That's really been why I wake up every day.

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That's what drives you to figure that that's really cool. Yeah, cause that many problems. You're kind of scaring me, but that's really cool.

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It's like, I don't understand why everybody isn't totally fascinated.

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They will be now people never thought about that, because it's hard to think about.

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Scary. It's so scary. So I was just gonna, you know, duping along trying to figure that stuff out. And then 911 happened. So I got into this field, because pretty much everyone's life after 911 changed in some way. I don't know. You guys are probably too young. But I watch.

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Out for upper back on any

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time. You leave it remember 911 I favorite?

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Wait, I remember where I was on 911. Jason, do you remember? Of course. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I remember I remember. Yeah, I remember watching. Like we thought it was a joke, right? And then, but then the second plane came in. And we're like, Wait, it's, it's not. That's really happening right now.

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Yeah. So I was getting ready to graduate with my PhD. I was three months away. And then and I was about to actually get on a plane to go interview for a postdoc. And it was 911. So all planes got canceled, I couldn't turn it upside down. So I ended up going later, when the plane started flying again, and went to a place for a postdoc, and I worked for the National Institutes of Health. And at that time, you know, soon after, when the anthrax scare happen, oh, yeah. The government dumped a zillion dollars on to the NIH ID and they wanted to build a bio containment lab on every street corner, it was gonna be like Starbucks, right? We need both labs everywhere, you know, so, okay, wait a second. It'd be like,

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but like for people who don't move in the lab world, a bio containment lab. It's not like the biology lab in my sixth grade school, right? Like bio containment lab is like, yeah, where you kind of grasshoppers. So what makes a bio containment lab different from, you know, so

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it's a pretty, it's very, it's a pretty sophisticated engineering facility. So it is a laboratory, but it is integrated with directional airflow. So for instance, the air gets filtered in one way and it gets filtered in another way, only one way it goes in and one way it goes out. It has you know, impenetrable seals around the wall. So have concrete walls where nothing can get through, you know, doors that are it's like a space. It's like going in a submarine basically, the the doors have the gaskets that blow up to seal it. And, you know, it's, you know, airproof it's like a bunker. Kinda, it's pretty much like a bunker. So it is it is, from an engineering standpoint, not an easy or cheap thing to build. And so, you know, but it is effective at containing. So just for the viewers bio containment, the definition of that is how the process of keeping micro organisms contained, right. So the process and in that process is the engineering of the facility. It's the procedures that the laboratory ins do and it's your personal protective equipment. It's all of that kind of I can get into that in more detail, but it's all a

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first first you have to say that again. Did you just did you say laboratorians? And laboratorians?

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Oh, it's my new favorite word.

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Love it. Right laboratory and save the laboratory and save the world. Right. Okay, so So the beginning, the beginning of, I guess it sounds like the the rules for this is before you even build the building is these engineering controls that you're talking about? Right? And so it doesn't just have regular doors. It has doors with gaskets, seals that blow up. I mean, right. So does it sound like us? Star Trek sound effect when you walk through the door.

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wishy sound and so anyway, back to the how I got into it was I was doing my postdoc not on bio containment and then they had built a level for their post 911. And I got it. And I wish I could say it was some really glamorous, sexy reason why I got into it, but I got into it because I needed a job just

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as good a reason as anything, you got to have a reason, right, I

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had to work somewhere. And they had built this brand new building and needed people to work in it. And so I loved viruses. And that was a cool place. So that's how I got into it. And that was about 15 years ago. So since then, I have worked, I was trained in level four bio containment first, and then also then subsequently got trained in level three. And so I have experience in both levels. And we can go into the difference between the two.

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Watch level 30 Is there a level you know,

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that was just like hurricanes? Because you know,

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you know, that's all we think about someone has a level or category look out the window, like what's happening?

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Really? Is that bigger than a cat five? Because I can't process that right now. Right? Okay, so So level four. So in the land of bio containment in laboratorians, with these special facilities, what is kind of like, how does the gradation work? Level one and three, level four? Where do you start?

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So level one is your kitchen table. So level one is just you touching everything, I hope whatever is there, it's

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not containment whatsoever,

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zero containment growth happening.

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Level salmonella from your chicken. Okay,

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level two is your common microorganisms that might make you sick and it might not so you know, common bacteria like staphylococcus or something that's okay to you. And that is done. In most labs, you put your lab coat on, that's what you see mostly on TV. You see people in their lab coats working on a lab bench, they have gloves on, they might have some safety goggles on but that's That's level two containment but the engineering is not very complicated. It does have filtration and directional airflow, but it's not like a level is that like

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under a hood, you know, where you see the thing where they reach their hands under something. And they're Yeah, it looks like an oven but it's not it's the hood where this sucks the air up

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exam. Okay, that's called a biosafety cabinet. So

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I even I knew that Yes, see baby Am I Am I

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myself that's the BSC is like our it's like our tried and true piece of equipment that we use that is provides personnel protection as well as your organism protection so it keeps you from contaminating yourself or other people.

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Okay, don't contaminate yourself got right note to self Don't lick stuff. Is that like engineering? Control? Number one is don't lick stuff in the lab.

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Oh, that's just common sense. Never.

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Life rule number one.

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Okay, okay. Y'all

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stop working it anyways. Okay. Yeah,

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right, Neil. Holy moly. My youngest nephew. Okay, So level one is kitchen table. Level two is like a standard lab. That

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standard lab. Okay, level three. Okay, now we're getting into containment. Okay. Level three is for pathogens that are mostly transmitted by respiratory droplets. So your influenza, and those are pathogens that can kill you. But usually there's a treatment for it or so you shouldn't die. So for instance, in level three, you hear that Jason? Good to know. I'm still okay with level three. Level four,

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you shouldn't die.

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You should you could get it you wear a lot more personal protective equipment. So for instance, you'll wear a full on respirator and a Tyvek suit

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isn't as the moon suit. The moon suit makes the appearance and level three are known

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that's until level 401 I

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get the stuff that'll kill you. Doesn't she just brushed it up there? I'm cool with level one. Let's just stay. Yeah. Okay, so that's

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level three. So level three does have the expensive engineering. So directional headphone airflow, HEPA filtration, a lot of PPE, everything's in a biosafety cabinet. There's also a high level of security. Now we're getting into security issues where the people that work in there are also pretty much vetted. Like you have to be vetted by the FBI and you have to they have to make sure you're not a thief or a terrorist before you go in and

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no strangers in the lab. Right. Right. Yeah, Stranger

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Danger is you can walk in right okay, at the BSA. So it's not like I'm getting a tour

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in the vet can get in right because she's got status everywhere I heard so.

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Okay, well, not necessarily, not generally why the lab is hot, unless you really, really wanted to, we could train you and we could put the suit on you and we can give you a tour, but it would take a while.

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Would it? Would it? Would it shock you to know that I have been trained?

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It would shock me.

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It would shock Jason. I had an injury. I was trained by the Department of Homeland Security. Oh, yeah. Okay, so that's level three. So what's level two

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and then level four is the highest. There's no thing after level four. So level four is for pathogens that will kill you. And there is nothing pretty much you can

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do about it. Okay, can you name one like that? We gotta have an example. We're gonna have a for instance.

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Sure. Ebola. I got out there. I'll just say Ebola. Yeah. The hemorrhagic fever virus. I

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have another one. No, all of them.

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Have another worse.

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The T virus.

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The T virus.

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Come on guy, Resident Evil the T virus. Sorry. I feel like such a goober now. Game. Dr. Jenner that absolutely knew what I was talking about. But she was following your lead. She didn't want to.

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I didn't I didn't. I didn't remember the name of the virus. I do love Resident Evil the series, but I couldn't remember the name of the virus from the umbrella company. Right? Is that? Or umbrella Corp?

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It's too late moving. Okay. Sorry. So bad stuff. And all series. We only make fun of it. But no, it's bad stuff. It's bad things. Okay, so.

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So now you're working in the full moon suit. So that's a positive what's called a positive pressure suit. So you put that whole thing on? And you know, pardon me for being crude. It's like wearing a giant condom. Right? Yeah, this thing on and then the, so it's air, you know, it's fresh air pumping over you. So nothing can infect you. So when you're working with

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pushing air out, so that air that's infected can't come in? Collect? Correct. So it's positive pressure,

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positive pressure. Okay, and that has guided most engineering so that has the sealed walls and the doors that like the submarine that was that looks like a submarine to a level. Yeah, exactly. Okay.

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And you don't want to get a tour of a level four even if they offered you one right because that's where bad stuff is. I wouldn't want to go there and Oh, thank you. Why would you want to go there?

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I mean, you know, I want to go

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those that work there and say thank you. I don't want to do that. That's really cool. Right? Right. Saving saving the world here.

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It is. It is. Okay. So on the other side of this break, there will be a quiz, Dr. Jason will have to tell us again, level 1234. So, hang with us, we're going to take a quick break. Hang in. With all the fuss happening in the pet food industry, why not invest in something to help guard against digestive health arrangements in your pet full buckets probiotics are formulated by veterinarians to support your pets normal digestive health, your pets gut microbiome is integral to their immune system performance. Why not add full buckets daily dog or daily cat probiotic powder to your pets daily routine? to curate protect, maintain and strengthen your pets microbiome. Visit full bucket health.com today to check out all of their veterinary strength supplements. Okay, thanks for hanging with us. And for those of you who want to get back to find out Jason's results from his quiz on level one through four by containments. He's still studying. We're gonna have to hang on just little bit. We got something nifty. We're gonna drop in here. So check this out.

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These view from vet school brought to you by the AVMA trust, veterinarian inspired coverage protecting you through it all.

18:48

It was brought to my attention that maybe some people out there might like some information on things to do once you've been accepted but don't really know what to do next. So I had to think about it. And the first thing I came up with that is crucially important to that school is Have you thought about your rabies vaccine yet because you're gonna have to get it. But if you've had exposure in the past as I have, because I touch stray animals too much, because you can get a tighter and we will provide a link because the AVMA will pay for part of or all of your tighter and possibly rabies vaccines and they are expensive. So you need to bind in the shop as much as you can. Also, it's a long series so you need to kind of play a bit out and you are gonna have to get them and the title does take a little while to come back. So don't wait to the last minute because that would be a mistake. It's a lot of them so you don't want to get them if you don't have to. So that and before that the tighter. Okay, and I got married 15 years ago Mama's still good stuff. Second thing, crucially important as well, but not life or death like that is housing. So you're gonna have to live somewhere. Unless you live in a mom and dad's house. That's all I didn't care of. And that's great, but you probably aren't, you're probably commuting from somewhere. So think about am I gonna buy am I going to rent, we're gonna have a roommate, and we're not gonna have a roommate and we will go on campus, off campus. These are all crucially important things, especially when you are going to med school, you are going to need to study a lot. And depending on what that means for you depends on what you need. But if you had a rowdy, being a child in a fraternity, no offense to fraternity people, we may in the past, that may not be the best way for you to go. So just something to think about and get established before all the housing is gone. Or you're down to the last minute and your time. The last thing is now that you've been accepted, you're going to get your acceptance packet, and they're going to tell you all the wonderful things you need to purchase them. Most of you will also have a class like Facebook thing and be able to talk to your class and upperclassmen talk to them, see what they bought, see what they need, what the classes are, like, I'm a good person, I bought all my books, but I bought them used because I bought them before I got here until there were used books available. So people don't need the books. Some courses don't need the books. So just do your research. And, and, and do that. Also, some places have computers you have to purchase. And you want to do research on that too. So you don't have to pay top dollar and then not have a computer when classes start. So that's kind of it. The only last little bit of advice I will give is the advice I will probably get every time don't panic, just come Don't get stuck in the chatter. And that's it. Those are my three pluses. And I'm B. That's my view. I'll be back with another view later. And if you want to know if I'm seeing what you're seeing, or you want to share your perspective, reach out to me at info at Chatfield, I'm sorry, Chatfield. show.com Thanks, guys. Have a great day.

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All right, for some of our brand new listeners, maybe Dr. Lisa's family. That was that was one of our recurring segments that we have, where we're following a vet student through her journey to become a veterinarian. So thanks V for that view.

22:10

Super awesome. bringing back some memories. And then maybe if you guys are interested or just always curious about stuff, you can learn about it. Anyway, let's get back to the bugs. Okay, containment laboratorians. All kinds of new words.

22:21

That's right. So what I find interesting, Dr. Lisa, is that you've told us at the beginning that you started out at level four, and went down to level three. So you started out in the mack daddy right? Jason is level four that most containment that that's killing you stop or what?

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Level four is bad stuff that will normally will kill you if you're just dead? Graveyard? Dead? Dead? No chance you get it on you.

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Yeah, for the most part, if you get it, if you get it, you remember the great Ebola outbreak in 2014? You know, most people without a lot of luck and therapy will die from that. So you know, okay, that's 100%. But it's pretty, like, you don't want to take that chance. Those odds are not not with you on the

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Vegas. Like don't pick Ebola, right? I mean, the mortality rate in the US turned out to be like 10%. But, but that's because

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they put them in bio bubbles and did it threw everything at them. I mean, this is for people that don't generally get any help at all. So it's

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like a 45% on wine. I gotta, I gotta lose half credit on that one, right? Yeah. Okay, okay.

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Oh, she's tough. Did you hear that? Yeah, barely.

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I know, right? Just ignore I'll take my half credit and move on. Alright, them's the rules. Tough.

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Okay, so So Dr. Lisa. So tell us because I know you've seen a ton of different labs, you've seen probably all kinds of stuff with coach or consulting. So and I know you haven't, like, you know, we're not going to speculate here in the chat room about, you know, did COVID do this to COVID do that we're not speculating about that. But in the United States, in labs that are operated in the United States. Does do viruses escape? Hey,

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Wow, such a good question. It's a good question. Yes. So the, the short answer to your question is yes, it can happen. And but it the way that it would happen would be pretty rare event.

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I mean, I could be Miss America. It could happen. Right?

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But that's it. Yeah, exactly. It's

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gonna be pretty rare.

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Right? Likely it doesn't point. Okay. And let

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me so I'll start with why it doesn't happen. Okay. It's much, you know, it might have happened and if, and the reason they go to such lengths in the containment world is because to it's called risk mitigation, right, you have a certain risk, and then you go and you think, well, what's the worst thing that can happen with Ebola? It gets out and it kills people, right? That's pretty bad. Yeah, it's bad. So then you think to yourself, Well, how do we stop that from happening? We want to work on it. Because we need to find vaccines, we need to find therapies because it is out in the world. Yeah, that's the rub, right? You have to work with it work on it, you have to use it, and you have to study it right, you got to take it apart. And you have to put it in animal models. And you have to see what happens, because that's the only way you're going to figure out how to develop a treatment or a vaccine. Correct. So they go through a lot of time and trouble to do what's called a hierarchy of controls. So like you said, they have engineering controls, which is like the submarine lab that you put it in where physically it can't get out. Then you have what's called administrative controls, where you take all the people that are going to work in it, and you train them how to work properly, right? So there's certain ways you work with things. And you work in your biosafety cabinet and you lock everything up, and you only do you know, I can't get into all the details, but you just there's certain ways you work with with the agent so that it's safe, and you won't expose yourself. And then you have the final or

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that Dr. Jason No exposing yourself. Nervous I

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got once you sit. Yeah, I mean, I kind of know I'm like, Man, I don't want this stuff to get I mean, I make fun and talking about T virus and all this stuff. But you know, this is gonna I hope she's going to, you know, allay my fears or blame or whatever that word is. Right. Right. Right. Make me feel safe by the end of the podcast, because I'm feeling a little nervous. Well,

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we're all safe, because she's been working in this sort of environment for like, 15 years. And she's still here talking to so I'm thinking she, she's done that? Well.

26:43

What I'm talking about does work, right. And so that final level is your personal protective equipment. So you're going to put your own suit on. And so even if you dump a whole vat of the stuff on you accidentally, you're not going to get it, you're not going to breathe it in, you're not going to drink it, you're not going to it's just not going to happen. So

27:04

it doesn't smoke. It's like, right, is that soaking through to get me and all that stuff that people talk about in the movies? Right, right,

27:11

exactly. It's not that's not gonna happen. But your question is, how would it get out? So what I go back to is people, so there's still people that work in there, and they're still human, and people. I know, as sad as it might seem, people can make mistakes, even the best people can make mistakes. So for instance, if you're working with a sharp or a needle, and you happen to something happens and something goes sideways, and you could inoculate yourself with a needle that has happened, you could just with for a lack of attention for just a second, you may not inactivate something properly. So for instance, there's ways you can kill the virus to bring it out so that you can work on it down at level two. And sometimes, if that goes sideways, as well, and it's a very rare event. That is how something could be brought out and still be alive. Oh, wait

28:04

a second. That totally happened. Right? Like was that a handful of years ago? Yes. But like the CDC emailed like x CDC has done it. Yeah, bola virus through the mail

28:15

the anthrax, Anthrax all over the place? Yeah. Well, I didn't email it. Sorry. They, they mailed it, they mailed it.

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Y'all were saying email? I'm like, No, I'm really scared.

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So yeah, there was they had they were going to inactivate it right, so that they could send it to lower or higher containment level labs to work on. And it didn't get inactivated for whatever reason. And so they just sent like, like,

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all over the place. You know what?

28:49

Like, we didn't all die. It's okay. Well, it was a mistake.

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But what you know, what happens is, it is the theme of your show, when that happens, then we circle around and now we have more rules. Right? So a lot of rules. More rules, right?

29:06

On the grand scale, right? Yeah. Wrestling for technical file right out of the game. Anyway. That is, that's a lot. I didn't, I didn't realize I was gonna ask that question. Can you go do the do the nano particles, the bad things to bio, I don't want to say polish. That's terrible. But but the virus would say viruses, they can go kind of maybe not up right, but they can definitely go down. You can go down and you guys are so sophisticated in those labs, you can deactivate them and do you nurture them or whatever you're gonna do to him and make him go down a level to make them safer. I find that both extremely fascinating and, you know, a little a little scary, right? That's

29:43

scary. Yeah. So we rely on chemistry, the rules of physics and chemistry, which are which never fail, but people can throw chemistry doing that never fails. But people if they make a mistake, if you don't put those put them write stuff together in the right combination, then it can fail. So that's how it can happen. And then

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we do it better the next time though, right? Like, like you said, Yeah. So then we examine it and whatever. Because isn't that science? Right? Is we try it. We learn from whatever the procedure was that we did. And then we try it again, a different way. Right? Yeah. I mean, that's the entire premise of the scientific method.

30:28

Is your hypothesis, right? You say, I think if I add x to y, or I cut up the grasshopper this way, this will happen. Right? Do that. And then you say, Well, no, that didn't happen. So that's mostly science as you go, Well, that didn't really happen the way I thought it was. Because we're not nearly as smart as Mother Nature is right? Not even close now. So and we just, that's why we toil away every day in the lab, because we just aren't very smart. And so we can think of things sometimes and can get things done, but it takes a lot of trial and error. So

31:00

yeah, yeah, little bitty steps, I'm sure. Because you don't want to make a big, I mean, little, I mean, probably miniscule, at a little trial, he's not gonna say, I'm gonna put this compound, see what happens here. That person didn't die must be working right? Little tiny.

31:13

doesn't really work that way.

31:16

But that kind of brings me to another component of this is that, you know, there's all kinds of ways to test pathogens and their treatment, right, like all kinds of ways to test new vaccines, all kinds of ways that you can test new medications. The way you can test it, did we actually inactivate this pathogen, this virus or this bacteria? But you you can't beat mother nature? No, you can't. And so one of the things as veterinarians that we know about, and some of us know more than others, because we have veterinarians that are specialists, board certified specialists in what we call lab animal medicine, is that not all animals are, are the same, right? Cats are not small dogs. And so, and so we got to test stuff in animals. And there's rules for that.

32:19

Lots of rules for that.

32:20

I mean, I think there's probably don't don't crush me on the internet. But I think there are probably I'm trying to think of when there's almost no industry more heavily regulated, like, then research with dangerous pathogens, and then further regulated research involving dangerous pathogens and animals. Exactly. Right. I mean, the longest

32:49

amount of training I had for years was with how to work with animals in containment. And if you are not a mouse, let's say in your other another species, or probably regulated by the USDA, so you are federally regulated, right, and therefore, therefore, every single animal in that facility is treated pretty much like a person would be treated, you have an individual medical record, they are cared for individually, just like a person would be cared for.

33:18

Okay, well, let's be fair, let's be fair and tell the truth. They might be cared for better than right.

33:27

The people that care for them care, almost care for them pretty much more than they would care about some people for sure. Yeah, yes. Yeah. Because they know that these animals are there for a purpose, right? They are not there. For random experimentation. Every time you choose to do an animal experiment, you are doing it for a specific purpose. And now you guys are touching on do it unless you know, you're going to get a meaningful result. Right? You

33:51

guys are doing pretty good touched on a super hot button topic, right? I mean, because I have very, very emotional responses to, you know, doing doing a test. I think you nailed it, people. I don't know why, like I'm talking about the T virus. People see this TV stuff, right? In movies, and they're like, Oh, they're just jab and Fido with whatever they want and kind of laugh at the results in which is, you know, everyone knows to a to a person. That's absurd. No one No one, no one does that. Probably never did that. No,

34:20

I think they used to do that. Jason, I think people used to do that. Why

34:26

not? Since the rules came, you know, then the rest came.

34:29

And then I think those people were probably few and few and far between, but you have to have these rules to have these tests because these these you know, the these labs and this all this stuff you're working with the viruses is because extremely important, I probably can't even list the number of of protections we have as as a as a species as humans, because of this kind of research. And the other the other option is to test its trade on humans, right? And I mean, that's not a very good Opportunity.

35:01

People would argue that would be okay. But most people don't think that's a good idea to just as

35:05

it could be you right? So, right.

35:08

Well, I 100% I mean, and that's, that is kind of the other half of the like discussion going on these days, right? Number like, half the people are talking about stuff escaping labs, right? The other half of the people are talking about experimental biologics and humans. Right. And so we we, I think it does, you know, the antidote to fear is information. And I think, in an apt one reason that I think we love science is because you don't have to be afraid of the result, you don't have to be afraid of the unknown, you can set about to figure out what is the unknown, right. And so whether than being afraid of what's going to happen, when you administer that new biologic, that new vaccine, that new medication into your child, you can be confident that in the United States, right, because every country is a little different, but in the United States, that that manufacturer has had to follow guidelines. And it doesn't matter who they are, doesn't matter how much money they have, it doesn't matter. They have to follow those guidelines. And from the other side of the fence, you can be sure that when they got to the point of involving other sentient species, right, other animals in that investigation, that they did so in a way that use the fewest animals possible, that provided for the least amount of discomfort in each individual animal throughout that process. And that the result was something that was usable. It was worthwhile to garner that information. And I think that that is something that is worth reviewing, reminding people of, especially in our current times. So yeah, so do you find that people who work in labs that don't have animals versus ones that do? Do those laboratories? Are they aware of the regulations? That impact? Yeah, they're

37:20

aware. The not to the detail that we are that the people that do work with, but everybody that works in labs that works in science understands the role of animals in research, you know, they understand the need for it. And the people that do it, they do it in a way that is it's not, it's it doesn't, it is it's really a double edged sword, because you don't really advertise it, you know, if you're doing all this, you don't like stick that on the front page of the paper because it is very sensitive, and people don't if they don't understand that could be very frightening for people to see that happen. However, on the other hand, if you don't do it, then we don't ever get any farther with vaccines or therapeutics,

38:04

or more our life expectancy, maybe in the 50s still, right. Yeah. 1950s 50 years old, right? Because because of all this kind of stuff,

38:11

right? Yeah. And vaccines is a tough one. Because, you know, most vaccines don't make it off the off the kitchen table. Right? They don't even make it off your chicken scratch on the napkin. Right, you know, and then. So that takes a lot and then to even get it to formulation, and then to actually when they're ready to put it in animals that's already been usually with the exception of the Coronavirus vaccine. That's usually you know, five or 10 years before they're even ready to put it in animals. And then that yeah,

38:43

because there are so many so many rules, rules. Yeah, right. All those rules are in there for protection, which is going to kind of bring it back full circle to why we kind of build off into that. Right, so Tim's the rules, as it pertains to bio containment, and, you know, all this testing stuff. So, so excellent.

39:00

Yeah, and I, so for instance, for our dog lovers out there, so one of those key things, and it took a while to for them to perfect it is the vaccine for Lyme disease. Right? It took a while because they couldn't figure out why in the dish. They were able to produce the antibodies that would attack the component of the bacteria that produced the disease. But then when they put that into animals, that it was ineffective, it didn't happen didn't work that

39:33

that is actually you just hit on like the number one reason to try things in animals is because most of the time when you're doing it in cell culture or in the petri dish, Oh, it's beautiful. You can publish in nature and you have just saved the world, right? You put it in a mouse and nothing happens. And so you're just you're just saying you're

39:53

right, because you've protected all of the petri dishes but you've done nothing for

39:58

the for the actual organs. So, right? And

40:01

then it took. So they kind of went back to the basic bench science at that point and said, What are we missing, we're missing something. And it turns out that that bacteria, when it is in a dish, does one thing it puts on one mask. And then when it gets processed, okay, through the tick in the gut of the tick, and then it gets put into the creature when the tick bites it, it has on a totally different mask. And so I

40:32

it's so fascinating. Why doesn't everybody know about this? Right? That's,

40:37

that's why and that's why it took so long to get an effective vaccine because that final step was, and it's always the biggest one that couldn't make it right. And if they had said, no research in animals, they're right. And it's the same thing for Lyme disease and people. Okay, just so you guys know, like, the bacteria doesn't care.

41:00

So I think you guys are talking about a lot of cool stuff. And it answers the question that a lot of people have, why do we need these bio containment fields in these labs? Why are we working on these things that are so dangerous? Well, this is exactly the reason why. And again, back to the rules, why we have these rules, so that so that people like Lisa and her company can work on these things, and save the world. It's not always a giant killer bug, right? But you got to practice this kind of stuff and work on it and, and stuff like that. Because the fact that we're saying, Hey, I'm gonna then activate what was it antis? I don't know what it was when you guys said made it made, it's crazy. Think about what you just did. It's something you can't even see made it from a deadly pathogen to like, Yeah, whatever. And you guys can do that and is awesome. I just think it's really awesome that they're, that a people can do that. And there exists places that you can save to do that. So we had to kind of talk about why we're talking about all these things. This is why is 100% Why

41:53

it is it is. Okay, so I have a question to actually say, are you ready? Right. So it's, it's I think it's fair to say and Jason, like, tell me if you agree, I think it's fair to say that. Dr. Lisa has a good awareness of what is scary and what is not. From a from a pathogens. Yes.

42:14

Okay. Gotcha. Okay. I would agree.

42:17

So what would you say? Is the like the virus I guess, that you are, like, you think is the worst? To get?

42:30

Let's see, oh, it's easier, because you

42:32

just see my eye roll because Dr. Jin always works into this doesn't matter if we're talking about you know, some dog food copies. Anyways. What's your answer?

42:40

Okay, what what is your like most feared virus? So

42:42

the scariest thing, if you're a virologist, and you work on this all day long, is mutation and evolution. So for instance, is the scariest thing to us is because it's something that is unpredictable. Usually in science, you know, as scientists, you can control lots of things in your experiment, right? You can make it so that you're really only looking at one variable. But if you take you know COVID, for example, SARS, cov. Two that is ripping through populations of people. And every single time it replicates it, it makes little tiny mutation changes in its mistake, and it's nucleic acid. And in that goes uncontrolled for a certain period of time through lots of people, which it is now. And so the real world example is alpha to delta will have the whole Greek alphabet by the time the spreading is done, right. And because it is continuing to mutate. And to virologists, that's the scary thing, because some eventually it might mutate into something that will just kill everybody. And that's so, right.

43:42

We don't want this right. So along is

43:44

you may not but we don't know it's just unpredictable, because along those

43:48

lines, the virus that you would be most afraid of

43:53

the virus that I would be most afraid of is a respiratory pathogen like SARS, cov, two or influenza. Oh, yeah, just

44:02

wanted you to say influenza. You're very good at it, not saying it. I'm very high.

44:08

Well, everybody's thinking about SARS right now, but I would actually be more afraid of influenza because influenza, it doesn't just have one little piece of RNA. It has eight, right? I don't know if you know that Genet you probably know the genetics of influenza. Oh, not theirs. Okay. Well, instead of one piece of RNA, there's eight. And those eight pieces mix and match all the time and make mistakes and they make mistakes, which

44:32

is why it's different. Every year, yeah, different nine different vaccines. Whatever, this year, it's this way.

44:39

But every once in a while it will change in such a way so that the human population does not have any immunity and then you'll get a pandemic,

44:47

a novel influenza pandemic. I know. I know. I won't look so excited. But yes, because everyone knows I think influenza is going to take over the world. Okay, so influenza there or, that's, that's the worst. But any any really, because pathogen x that we don't yet know about could have the capability for mutation at an even faster rate with less direction and prediction than influenza has now that's, that's, I guess that's possible. Right? So that would, that would trump it?

45:20

Yes. And the thing you have to think about in terms of pathogens is there's a balance that they'll strike. Like, for instance, Ebola is not a terribly good pathogen, because it burns itself out right away, it reveals a toast. So, so fast, it doesn't have a chance to really to transmit very efficiently, whereas a respiratory pathogen does, it goes through the air, you just have to cough or sneeze, and you're gonna infect a whole roomful of people and, and not kill you fast enough that it doesn't have the ability to do that. So those viruses are the are the most scary ones to me, and the smart and then you go the other spectrum are the smartest viruses, I guess. It's terrible to personify all this stuff, but the they're the ones that will integrate like HIV or something like that, get in your own DNA and persist. And so from an evolutionary, you know, perspective, that's pretty clever, right? I'm just gonna hang out in this host forever and for millennia, and sometimes I'll,

46:20

I'll cause disease, and cause disease, sometimes I want to,

46:25

you know, it's okay. And then everybody kind of has me and then I'm just carried around, but but the ones that can really cause a lot of problems are the respiratory pathogens that can mutate quickly. So

46:36

yes, so they, they definitely need to be in a bio containment bio

46:40

containment lab while we're working on them. Yeah. And that's the thing that I think people lose sight of the big picture, you know, they're scared of all the stuff in the bio containment labs, but influenza is in your environment all day long, all the time, right into thinking about what to be afraid of, is not really the people working in bio containment labs, and what might come out of there would be great of is the bat flying over your house that might drop something on your dog and then something mutates and then causes you know, something bad to happen, right? That's

47:10

right. And, and you really shouldn't be afraid of that, because you can't do anything about it. So you just take precautions, you keep your mouth closed, you wash your hands, you know, you don't lick it. You don't hang out with sick people. You don't hang out with sick animals. These are things that like, you know, your mom taught you before she sent you off to kindergarten. Exactly.

47:31

And it's all still the same. Right? I did get an entire degree in public health nearly at the end came out came away with well, you just pretty much need to wash your hands.

47:45

Know you're under your you're not valuing the don't look stuff rule. You know, you have that that's the big one. Right?

47:51

It is. It is. And some people say they go further. And they're like, if it's wet and made by a stranger Don't touch it. Right? Yeah. So don't touch gross stuff. Yeah,

48:03

when you don't want that either.

48:08

If it smells bad, there's a reason that your your body is saying move away from there. Right? Yeah. 100% 100%? Well, this has been an incredible education. The rules are the fact that they exist, and that they're significant. And they're there to protect us.

48:27

And they're, and there are a ton of them, I think people need to realize is a lot of them. And the people that go into these level four rooms are more than well educated. They don't just like they wouldn't let me anywhere near that. So they let people that aren't going to make mistakes. And so people worry about other stuff. But there's lots of rules, lots of protection. So and we need this sort, you need this science to progress. So we do Yeah.

48:48

And I also think it's great to find out that the little girl in school who raises her hand says Pick Me Pick Me for chopping up grasshoppers and looking at scientific stuff can be incredibly successful as an entrepreneur in the field of science,

49:09

excuse me and save the world and save though.

49:13

That's right, save the world. So, so Dr. Lisa, thank you so very much for joining us today. And I think we hope to have you back. We'd like to talk about some more topics. But yeah, remember,

49:27

she asked if we were too young, too young to remember. 911. So yeah, she come back. We're talking. Right back.

49:33

That's 100%. Right. Yeah. So we hope you'll join us and come back. That's, she's Dr. Lisa chercheur, with Crutcher, consulting, anything any other tip or item you think that chatterboxes ought to know about? Oh,

49:49

you know, feel free to reach out you know, reach out to your local scientists. If you've got one in your family or you've got one you know about, you know, scientists are pretty bad at communicating. You know, it's COVID happened, you know, I never seen so many virologists on TV before on TV. So the reason why no one knows me or what we do is because we spend most of our time blocked in a containment lab, right? That's where I usually am. And so we do you need to do a better job of getting out and communicating science. Everybody recognizes that. And I think that we don't generally do a very good job of that. And, and it's harder now in the in this kind of political climate because people, nobody, none of the scientists understand why all of a sudden viruses are political. Right. So this has never been an issue before. And so we need to even do a better job. So I have, you know, I'm generally horrified to go on television and talk but now here I am, at least on a podcast. That's right. The message out there exactly right.

50:49

I were so incredibly glad that you did come into the chat room. So I think I think we're gonna we're gonna close the door. That's all I have Dr. Jason.

51:01

No, but my new favorite word is laboratorians. I'm thinking comic book movie, all kinds of stuff. laboratorians forget the Avengers. The laboratorians are saving the world.

51:10

That's right. That's right. All right. Well, he's Dr. Jason. She's actually Lisa. I'm Dr. Jenn the vet and we hope to see you guys on the next episode of Chad sick check.

51:22

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