Chats with the Chatfields

Ep 16: Drugs and Bugs: Did he take horse dewormer?!

October 18, 2021 Dr. Jen the vet and Dr. Jason Chatfield Season 1 Episode 16
Chats with the Chatfields
Ep 16: Drugs and Bugs: Did he take horse dewormer?!
Show Notes Transcript

Oy!  There has been so much information and mis-information in the press these days about HORSE DEWORMER, ivermectin, and COVID-19, that Dr. Jen the vet and Dr. Jason had to weigh-in as veterinarians!

Join our fearless, candid and educated co-hosts as they discuss the universe of drugs and the bugs they treat in dogs, cats, horses, cows, honey bees (?), and, yes, even people.

Jump to a hilarious installment of V's View from Vet School at the 16:50 mark and hear how her journey to becoming Dr. V is progressing.

This episode is sponsored by FullBucket Veterinary Strength supplements.  Use code "Chatfields" to receive 20% off your first order at

V's View is sponsored by the AVMA Trust providing, "veterinarian inspired coverage, protecting you through it all!"  Find out more at:

Share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it...or might be interested in the topic...or just to make their day brighter! :)


drugs, human, dog, veterinarians, bugs, people, cats, ferrets, jason, physician, called, prescribed, dosing, pets, podcast, metabolic rate, friends, infection, united states, horse


This episode is sponsored by full bucket veterinary strength supplements, use promo code, chatfields to receive 20% off your first order from full bucket veterinary strength supplements.


Welcome to chats with the chatfields. This is a podcast to expand your idea of what impacts veterinarians, pet owners, and basically all animal lovers in the galaxy as humans. We are your hosts, I'm Dr. Jen the vet. And I'm Dr. Jason. If you've not yet subscribed to our show,



why not



just go to and subscribe today. And if you want to reach us, and you've got a lovely message that's full of positive thoughts, you can find me at



And once again, for everybody else who has a real tough questions and real hard wants real hard answers. You can email me at



Okay, into the chat room we go. But, Jason, it's a little bit empty in here today, isn't it? Yeah,



scary, scary stuff. empty row is gonna happen. I know. So it's another, either nothing's gonna happen, or I don't have any idea if you're bringing in a guest host or what's happened, I have no idea just not used to it. I'm at a loss.



I know as per the US Jason's not really going on. But today is another episode of what we like to call chat fields. differentials, just as a veterinarian or a physician may make a list of likely differential diagnoses and a complicated case. We like to make a list of things that are provoking thoughts from us stuff, right, just thing that's going on. Yeah. And it's



interesting. You said veterinarians and physicians, right, a little foreshadowing, right. So human doctors and animal doctors kind of go through the same process, right. And by differential diagnosis, that's a giant two words that maybe people don't know that means things it could be things, it might be whatever problem you're having things it could be right. Yep. So yep. So anyways, okay, so do you guys because I don't throw that at me. I'm talking back to you. What are we got?



Yeah. Okay, so this has been driving me a little batty lately. I listened to other podcasts.



Yeah, I didn't even know there were other podcasts. But



okay. So there's a big fluff going on because Joe Rogan on his podcast the Joe Rogan experience which is which is a great show. By the way, yeah. So there was this big debate between him and Sanjay Gupta. Yeah, who is the medical correspondent and and a medical doctor for one of the major networks. I think it's NBC, but I'm not sure. Anyway. And so they had this big whoop dee doo big, big kerfuffle about



your say, call it a kerfuffle.



It was a kerfuffle. Right. Because even though Dr. Gupta with guesting on the Joe Rogan experience Joe Rogan kind of went at him hard and said that the network had misrepresented some of the medications he'd been prescribed for treatment for COVID-19. And then, of course, the next morning on all the news shows, we had to hear it again. And again and again. And yet again. We heard about this whole kerfuffle that went on because they were talking about is ivermectin, a horse? dewormer. Is ivermectin, a human treatment?



Joe Rogan give himself some horse? dewormer. Right. Whoever said it said it said it just like that. Right?



They did. And then here's the other thing, right? I don't want to quote like, you know, the 90s. But not that there's anything wrong with that. That's funny. Yeah. So then, so that's been driving me nuts. Because I, you know, in my, in one of my former lives, I gave continuing education lectures to the medical staff of human hospitals routinely, right.



Continuing Ed to two human doctors. I did. Yeah, Ron, that's cool. I love it. It's called crossover. It's



great. It's crossover. That's right. Well, because one of the things one of the truths these days in our universe, is that in the entire universe, there's, there's only one pot of drugs, there's not like, these are horse drugs. And these are people drugs, and these are pig drugs. And there's, there's just drugs, right? And a lot of drugs that we use in veterinary medicine are precisely the same as what is



right here. It's actually shocking when when clients or friends or especially especially if you've ever worked at a zoo, because you tend to use a lot of a lot of different stuff like that. And then you can give that I give that to my baby, you giving that to this Okapi. I'm like, yeah, what's the point? Right? But I get it. If you're not in the, you know, the first time you read, you realize that is a little shocking, right? People tend to think compartmentalized, humans have their own special thing. And then animals have their own special thing, which is not not even not even close to, right. So no, but I'll tell you



the most shocking component of these conversations for me is when I'm standing in an exam room, and you know, I diagnose a bacterial infection and in a dog's fur, let's say And the drug is owned by a physician and the physician, I'll say, Okay, so I'm gonna send you home with some clavamox. Right for your win. That's the other thing, drugs have so many different names. So you have clavamox in the market. And then in the human world, the same exact drug is called augmented, right. And so I usually say to people, whether they're physicians or not, I'll say, you know, it's, it's augmented for your dog. And if it's a physician, inevitably, they'll say, Wait, what? No way. It's the same. Is that kind of like what I prescribed? And I said, No, Doctor, is precisely what you prescribe. Right? But I'm the only very, very special person in



this room. Right? Right. So a lot of it is it we deal like, I'm not trying to poopoo any any field of work, but it seems to me and I'm not in this world. But in the human physician world, they really deal with trade names. They do you know, they say Kleenex versus tissue, right? Coke instead of soda, or whatever. And that's how they saw. So they get used to doing that. And they say, again, we are all human, they sometimes forget exactly that argument is actually claggy law is amoxicillin and clavulanic acid, which, which is more aptly named clavamox. Because I can't come I can't forget that, right. But it's the same exact drug formulated maybe a little bit differently, or less concentrated or whatever. So



yes, 100%, and that, you know, what that is also interesting. So when I would find myself talking with human physicians, I would have that issue because in veterinary medicine, right, like JSON, we had to learn the trade name, we had to learn the drug name everything to learn that, you know, the the compound, and then we had to learn all of the different concentrations and formulations that each of them are available in. Right. And that that's, that is something that is different, sometimes between the human formulation of a drug versus the veterinary is because the concentration may be different. Certainly, they can add things to it to potentiate or enhance the activity of the drug. And that's why we should say at the outset of this, you should never give your drugs to your pet and you should never take your pets drugs,



right. Only take drugs as prescribed by your physician and only give drugs only give your pets drug as prescribed by your by your veterinarian. We should have probably said that in the beginning. And we'll say it again at the end, right? Because we were talking about it. Because we deal with this as an everyday thing. What was also interesting and funny to me, this is sort of off topic I know but it's still funny is the way they dose medicine in the in the other world right over dosing is a little bit different than the way we were really, really concerned about weight, right? And milligrams per kilogram, and that's okay.



Dr. Jason. Yeah, some of us are more concerned about weight than others, obviously, at all times,



at all times. Okay, I get Haha, you're so funny. But in any case, when you're dosing it, but the humans man, they dose per kid, they do us on a crazy, it's very different, right? And it's worked for them. And that's the third that's the taught to do that's fine. But it's, it's the first time you get that you're like, Wait, why? Wait is this child and just gonna give it this much. And if you look on an over the counter stuff, it's always by weight. So so it is, you know, the way you give? It might be different? Right? For sure. Yeah, but I think give right I think also



okay, not only the way you give it because please don't ever hide any medication for me in a piece. Did some



cheese like Oh, no. Dr. J, for you. It's



ever poke it down my throat. But not only that, but there's sometimes the frequency of dosing. So how often we take it during in a day, or for how long we might take it those sorts of things. Because imagine in the in the veterinary world, I deal with dogs and cat who have one metabolic rate, right, their metabolism works at one rate, and it's actually pretty similar ours. But then I also deal with birds, who typically typically not always have a much faster metabolic rate, and then wait for it. We deal with those things that some people mistake for rocks called giant tortoises, their metabolic rate is merged slower and Wait, what about slop? Their metabolic rate is too slow? Yeah, yes, right. Whereas you might give something twice a day in dog you're gonna give that to a sloth once every two days



right? brought that by metabolic rate you mean how fast they break down? Whatever you're giving him whatever drug or whatever to become the active ingredient become effective soy sauce, do everything. Yeah, nope. Yeah, is everything slow especially if they're working the DVM counter but Yeah, the DMV, not the DVM counter, right. Whatever.



The DMV, yeah. So well, I like so that's I guess that's what's been driving me nuts as I'm watching all of this stuff. And it kind of started last year when the, that international evidence based medicine group came out with some data that they published regarding the use of some drugs that are not labeled for use in people for the purpose of COVID-19. Right. Yeah. And so but they the evidence based medicine group came out with some data, which means they had X number of cases that they treated this way. And this is what happened. That's the evidence. They had hearings on Capitol Hill about it. And in the United States, they kept using this word, they kept saying, we don't want to use repurposed drugs. And I thought, eu Yeah, yeah. Me either. Like, what, what is that supposed to mean? So you have to wait. It's not like repurposed tires, you know, like that. They're, they're paving the streets. So like upcycling, you know, your, your egg carton?



What were they referring to this repurposed drugs? What were they referring to on Capitol Hill?



Yeah. So, in the United States, drugs, the thing in the United States that people take sometimes for granted, although maybe not after this pandemic? Thanks, COVID, is that



probably two years after this pandemic? There will that's how we are right? drugs, drugs



in the United States are very reliable. And by that, I mean that when you go buy something, whether it's over the counter or prescription, your trust, you don't even hesitate, you don't even think I wonder if what they're saying is in this bottle is what's in this bottle



is so foreign to everybody. That's a good point. I never thought that right?



Yeah. And you're not worried? Like, did they kind of stretch this out to make more of it? Did they accidentally introduce a bunch of arsenic into it? Like, is this gonna kill me just because of some mistake at the factory? Now, of course, those things can happen, right? By and large United States because of the massive regulatory machine that we have. It really doesn't and it keeps us safe. And so when we talk about repurposed drugs, it means that what you're doing in the United States, this is a very much a United States issue is you're taking a drug that has been approved and issued a label by the FDA. It is legal for use for a certain purpose in certain creatures, whether that's human dogs, cats, horses, cows, whatever. And ivermectin has not been labeled for use in humans to treat or prevent infection or disease caused by SARS Coronavirus, two, which means that if you are prescribed it by your doctor, which is legal, it's called off label use. Because if the label doesn't say that you can do it. If you're prescribed by your doctor, then that's the repurposing of a drug because you're using it for a different purpose. Right. That doesn't seem as horrible as like use tires. No,



it's not a very good connotation with the with the, you know, I think it goes back to what was said, you know, this guy took a horse dewormer right, that sounds that sounds like he just took some pastes from the local Co Op and ate it or something, right? Hey, it worked. Okay, not as smart. Not a smart thing. I'm gonna guess that's not exactly what happened. However, you know, that's sort of how it was portrayed. Because, yeah, over the way it is in the press nowadays. And



yeah, and I also think what's interesting, too, is that ivermectin is persuasive is labeled for use in humans.



Absolutely. And that crazy, it is.



It Well, I don't think it's crazy. But it's, it's actually used globally in humans. Right. And it's used for, you know, parasites. Right controller? Yes. Oh, Parasite so



crazy, because it's used a lot in veterinary medicine, right, a lie. And we hear about it. And so I mean, we call it vitamin vitamin. So you talk to talk to someone about ivermectin and the human, they're like, oh, it's an animal drug. Right, or whatever. This is the whole point of this, this podcast, I think to say, I think I think the saying that drugs are drugs and bugs are bugs, it kind of kind of kind of goes to this, you're treating the bug, not the not the thing surrounding it. So if you know you have a parasite, a parasite, I've mentioned worked on parasites, whether it's in a dog, you know, cat, a human differently, albeit, but it's the same exact drug, you know, with the same exact, you know, mechanism of action.



So, yeah, and I think that's a good point, Jason. So, one,



good is our second one this year. Second point this year, is getting close to the end of the second one,



but what so why don't you expand upon the bugs as bugs because drugs, drugs, we've kind of beat that horse. Haha, that we kind of beat that. So what is bugs is bugs?



Well, it rhymes with drugs. And so I thought it would be a great to say but that's what you're taking all of these these medicines for is the bugs in your body, you diagnose you have, you have some, some bacteria causing a problem, some virus called otherwise there's no there's antiviral drugs, but they're not great. So some parasite causing upon those are all the bugs, and they live in different parts of the body, but they live in different animals. And some some of these bugs can affect dogs, cats, human horses, cats, some can usually only affect dogs only affect horses, but the drugs who take care of them, whether it's in a human, a cow, you know, in a copy are the same. You know, that's, that's my point, the bugs are the same. So therefore, the drugs to take care of them are also the same. Like, like your idea of one giant pot of drugs for everybody. Right? Sounds really terrible. But you know what I'm saying, right? Yeah. You know, it's like, we're going to party but you know, so You bet we have a giant, giant amount of drugs, and we use them for different things.



Okay, so we actually have some more to talk about this, because there's been so much misinformation in the press about it. And so we just want to make sure that it's clear so hang with us. On the other side of the break, we're gonna get into some of those specific differences and what you need to look out for hitting on catch you guys on the other side. With all the fuss happening in the pet food industry, why not invest in something to help guard against digestive health arrangements in your pet? Full buckets probiotics are formulated by veterinarians to support your pets normal digestive health, your pets gut microbiome is integral to their immune system performance. Why not add full buckets daily dog or daily cat probiotic powder to your pets daily routine? to curate, protect, maintain and strengthen your pets microbiome. Visit full bucket Today to check out all of their veterinary strength supplements.



These view from that school brought to you by the AVMA trust veterinarian inspired coverage protecting you through it



all. Hello, and welcome to V's view. Last weekend I took a much needed break from studying to meet a couple of friends from school for some fine dining shout out to Applebee's. Actually, I prefer Harvey's which is local. But nevermind. Anyhow, they were having a good old time living our best lives. And I noticed that some some folks around us seem to be steering a bit. I thought could this possibly be because I've said the word diarrhea three times in a conversation involving dining? Or was it perhaps that some of the words started to sound a little out of this world, or at least not local Americana. So after checking and listening with some of my vet school friends, I started to notice that our words were getting a little Greek or Latin, or both. So African firming was my nan but school enroll fiance Frank, he said my vernacular had started to become a little foreign to him. Now he speaks three languages. So that's really bad. Even he can't understand me. So as it turns out, that students kind of speak Latin, that can be problematic if you're a phonetic person like me, where it's taped them, not to pee them, because guess what? It's spelled, tape dumb. And that's how I have to trick myself into remembering something when I have just bought something correctly on anatomy exam. But it turns out, there's some tools out there that can help us all spell these things correctly, or at least so we can hear them more than one time, like in class and pronounce them. So embrace your new vernacular that students and other people out there understand that some of that students aren't going to sometimes they are veterinarians, for that matter. See some things that you're not quite on point on what they're saying. That's okay. Ask the question. I'm sorry. What was that word? Tape them? Oh, and they should be saying to Pete them. lucidum ask the question. People that don't speak Latin. And for those people that are learning how to speak Latin, learn how to communicate with people and not speak Latin as well. That's my view from that school from me.



All right, well, welcome back to the chatroom. Yeah, thanks D for that. So it's interesting, Jason, that she brought up Latin and Latin terms, right,



man, don't bring up Latin with me. I remember that. It was like a whole different language. I mean, it still is but when you first get exposed to it, it's like jumping into the deep end for sure.



It is it is but But what I also find interesting, going back to this what we're talking about today on this differentials is kind of that crossover that intersection between human medicine and veterinary medicine, which everyone should be acutely aware of I'm following the pandemic, right COVID. And that's another component of it. Because, I mean, we kill it now on Jeopardy when like medical terms as a category, right? Because it's the same, you know, the words are the same. And so when we talk about acute myocarditis, you know, the inflammation of the heart that was people were talking about as a potential side effect when we talk about ivermectin, okay, I can't keep harping on that. But it's in the news. ivermectin. And we talked about that, about the antibiotics that we were talking about. And the bugs largely there, those things are the same, except for a few kind of idiosyncrasies a few outliers. Right. Right. So things that are specific, like,



outliers in the drugs in the bugs are both both, right



versus most. Of course, it's both, of course, because if you could just presume it was all the same across the board, you wouldn't need us. Right? This is true. You just have the doctor. Right, right. Yeah. So so there's some specific things. So when you are in your veterinarians exam room, and they're talking with you about pathogens, because I do get this a lot people will ask me, you know, for instance, if their dog has diarrhea, okay. And I'll tell him, Well, it looks like it's about bacterial meningitis. So bacteria overgrowth, inflammation, causing inflammation, which is causing diarrhea, right? And they'll say, Oh, my goodness, can I get it? Can our other dogs get it? And, you know, my responses will, I mean, you could, but, you know, just kind of avoid eating the dogs.



Don't go look up the funnel, right. Yeah, it's gross. Yeah.



And is it you know, is it can, quote contagious to your other dog? necessarily, you know, it's an overgrowth, because of some sort of hiccup in the regulation of that crazy individual, right microbiome, good bugs that are in the gut of the dog, or the person or the or the horse or whatever. And so, yeah, so not that one. But then there are ones that are of great import, right, like, can we get through a podcast without saying influenza? No, not with you on No. That's right. So influenza, now we don't have any documented cases of dogs are giving influenza to humans. However, we do have cases where people gave flu to the dog, there was a documented case of cats transmitting flu to a person but it was a really, really intense situation with lots and lots of contact, it's really unlikely that your cat is going to give you influenza However, if your dog or your cat has any respiratory ailment, don't hold them up by your face. Don't get all that schmutz in your face friend, because even though it's not COVID-19 You don't want it right.



You wouldn't do it. If that was a human. If that was one of your friends. If that was one of your friends sitting at your lunch table, right with, with the wheezes in the drip, you would say I love you, man, go sit somewhere else don't read on me. However, sometimes you forget that, you know, Oh, I love you to put the dog right in their face. And it's the same. It's the same kind of thing. You know, bugs or a lot of bugs are picky what they what they what they want to where they want to live, but sometimes they're not. And that's that's part of the part of the issue.



Yeah, right. And we and we saw that member at the beginning of this pandemic when it kind of flared up and they were worried because there was that the first one was that that dog in Hong Kong, right that little Pomeranian like, like an 18 year old Pomeranian, right? Yeah, but people you know people were concerned they thought it had SARS Coronavirus to the color novel Coronavirus. Yeah, darling it Yeah. And it did indeed have a positive test, but it did not apparently have through infection. So there was that. But then there's been a handful of cases where dogs, they thought had it and they did, it just turns out they're not very effective at transmitting it back to us, which is good. So we don't have any cases where dogs are given it to people. And then all the ferrets and mink and all of that sort of thing came up. And then there was a paper recently, getting back to our current events theme paper was just recently published that they looked in four different states at the White free roaming white tailed deer. And 40 to 60% of them had a positive antibody tests for COVID-19



Oh my gosh, I'm not trying to make fun of anybody but this whole painting really put a boom on some papers, right? It's just a whole new fashion of like, like me to write some papers. So I was talking about the deer in just a minute but I think you make a great point and maybe we'll make it some more. So the bug like the SARS Corona. The COVID-19 bug is the same, but it affected us and affected ferrets and cats more easily than maybe other animals. And I think people realizing they probably already do, but that's because not because they like ferrets and and cats and stuff because the way they infect the biological organism, right is this is similar in both humans and all three of those species. That's, that's sort of what we need to realize.



Dow's down into the minutiae, right write down by the minutiae of my nerd friends out there. It has to do remember that spike protein, it was all in the news. Yep. So the spike protein is the key that that the virus inserts into the lock that is sitting on the outside of your cells, like in your lungs and your nose and your respiratory cells. Yeah, yeah. And that lock is called the ACE two receptor. Okay. And so any creature that has a high population of ACE two receptors on any type of cell is going to be likely susceptible to infection with SARS Coronavirus to, and so in



are more susceptible anyways, then someone that has fewer or less or none. Right, right. So



and because that's my protein is the key that fits right into there and unlocks it. And then the virus goes in and hijacks the machinery and moves on. And in fact, that's why Coronavirus is in general have an affinity or preference for gi right intestinal and stomach infection and respiratory system infections is because that's where we express those A's to receptors on those cells in the greatest number. So it shouldn't have surprised anybody that cats could get it right. Because their cell cell population is just like it wasn't right. Yeah, yeah. And the same thing with ferrets. And mink are related to ferrets. And so there you go. It it's a it's interesting, because I kind of wonder who's been hanging out so closely with the white tailed deer, you know that they picked it up? And what does that antibody? titer? mean? I don't really know. Yeah,



I mean, I don't know what that means. Because that's a whole nother, you know, 18 podcast to talk about what this test actually actually mean. But the point was that it's not necessarily what's surrounding the biological being, it's what what, what, what is good for the virus, right? What's good for the bacteria, what's good for whatever, that's where it goes. And so that's why we talk about drugs or drugs and, and budget budgets, it is still the same drug, the treats is still the same, whether it's prescribed for, you know, this or that or whatever. You know, there's not, there's not specific, you know, a vat of animal drugs versus a vat of human drugs. So,



but I will tell you, so now, like everyone out there, in the chat room, calm down, because there are significant regulations could almost be an entire them's the rules episode on its own significant regulations. And maybe we'll do that in the future, regarding the use of all drugs, in anything intended for food. So in the United States, you can't just be giving any kind of drug you want you even antibiotics, there's very few antibiotics you can give to things like fish, like fish, there's only a couple of them you can use in fish. Cattle can't use very many, right? Chickens, same thing, same thing. And even in the last, anything you eat, right? Yeah, in the last 10 years, even we've cut that back even further. Oh, bees. Same thing with bees, because stuff can end up in the honey. And we don't want resistance. Right. And so anyway, so there's all kinds of regulations about who can use what, when, and how. And it's largely based on physiology, and the end use of the creature, right, like coset, because that can have any medication that is going to save her. The first Frenchie needs to persist. That's funny, but you know, something that that the population is going to consume, then that that massive, covert, largely public health infrastructure, the United States is looking out for food safety with that. And so there's lots of



this should probably right, because none of us none of us are worried about anything. We go by the meat. Nobody is because of that regulatory things. So because of that fantastic crossover between the animal world and the human world. So



yep, yep, it's big. Okay, so I think we've hit drugs and bugs. Jase. What do you think? Is that like any other final points you got on?



No, man, I just liked my drugs or drugs and bugs or bugs. I think that's great.



I think that's great, too.



But really, people asked that question a lot, right? Yeah, you can give this and I didn't even I didn't I had forgotten about having physicians, human physicians in the room and especially with biomarkers and you tell them it's all



okay. Yeah. So so it's a lot of fun. When when you find yourself in those situations, but that's okay. Because it doesn't change the fact that what, what else



do Right drugs or drugs and volunteer, but you know what? I've said it enough. I didn't know you want me to say it again?



Okay, well, I'm glad we got that all cleaned up, cleared up. And now everyone can move on and speak intelligently in social circles should they find themselves in one.



And more importantly, Dr. Jenn Yvette is now rid herself of that angst that you've built up for hearing. So now she's good to go. That's right. Okay. cathartic podcast. It



was it was I appreciate that. Thank you guys. chatterboxes for allowing us allowing me to drag my soapbox out for a moment and talk about that. I think that's all we have today. And oh, and thanks V for your view. We like that too. Well, I guess that's it. I guess. I'm Dr. Jenn, and Dr. Jason, and we'll catch you guys on the next episode.



This episode is sponsored by full bucket veterinary strength supplements. Use promo code Chatfield to receive 20% off your first order from full buckets veterinary strength supplements.