Every restaurant in the universe is now dog-friendly, it seems! But, is that okay? Should all dogs go out to eat? Is it safe for your dog to go out to eat with you? What should you even consider before making the decision to load that dog up and get your grub on?! Luckily, world-renowned dog trainer Kathy Santo sits down in the Chat Room with Dr. Jen the vet and Dr. Jason to talk all about taking your dog out to eat... or not!
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This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses, Merck animal health, the makers of Noby vac vaccine. Hi, welcome to chats with the Chatfields. This is a podcast expanding your idea of what impacts veterinarians, pet owners. Basically all animal lovers in the galaxy is human. We are your hosts. I'm Dr. Jen the vet. And I'm Dr. Jason. If you have not yet subscribed to our show, (why not?) just go to Chatfieldshow.com And subscribe today. And if you want to reach us, you can find me with any message of love and positivity at Jen@Chatfieldshow.com and for all other messages keep on pouring in to Jason@Chatfieldshow.com. Okay, yes, pour them in pour them. So, I I have so many fans and so many people asking real down to earth questions not love and rainbows and unicorns, that I had to set aside at least 47 hours a day just to answer them all. And I do answer them all. So I'm sure that you do well. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Jason, for taking a break from poring over all of those messages pouring in. Because today, we have a great guest we're gonna go ahead and bring her in. She has so many things that she's done. And you Oh, some of the chatterboxes may already be familiar with her because of her national profile. So our guest today is none other than Kathy Santo. She is a nationally renowned, maybe internationally renowned dog trainer. And she's been on you may have seen her on such shows like I don't know, Good Morning America. This morning. AKC TV. Oh my goodness, because she's an AKC trainer. She's a dog trainer extraordinaire. Welcome, Kathy. And can you do something about Dr. Jason? He's not a dog. But what does that mean? It's a longer training program. Oh my god. I think y'all had a little conversation. None. None at all. It's just it's just a universal need. Right. Okay, I'm ready to train me up, Scotty. It's not quite the right word. But that's right. No, but welcome, Kathy, welcome to the chat room. Thanks so much for joining us. It's great to be here. Yeah. So we wanted to have you on because today we're gonna talk about something that I think people romanticize a little bit and think it's something that sounds like, it sounded like a good idea at the time, which is taking their lovely dog. I guess we're cat you could take a cat. But taking your pet out to eat with you. Yeah, you mean? Like, you know? You mean, like ultra restaurant, like the Sonic or what? Like, what do you mean? What are you talking about? Oh, oh, I see. Okay. All right. I mean, Kathy, you like, have you had clients that have, like, told you about horror things that happened when they took their dog out to eat and by themselves? Yeah, I mean it from a dog who comes to me, because it broke loose from the table and went after a dog walking by on the street to a dog jumping on the table and the leads get no. And then they come to me for training because they'd like that to never happen. I bet that's funny. Yeah. embarrassing is that if your dog jumps on the table, play it off. Like it's supposed to be there. Not sure. Because, firstly, take a picture, of course. And then you know, so it's like, I mean, but this reminds me of the holiday questions that we get, which is I'm having 52 People over my house, you know, like, you know, what kind of treats can I give my dog so when he's hanging out with the guests, you can be comfortable? So really, the first question is, it's not a good idea. Because I think as a species, they don't have parties. But they do play poker. I've seen the paintings they are i don't know i I'm gonna I may have to disagree with that because I have a pack of dogs, right? I used to have three right? And I promise you they were so wiped out when I would get home from work. I know those little pumps were partying all day long. So I'm gonna have to reserve judgment on that they don't have no they do. But they're not sending out Dougie invites to have a good point to the house. Right. Yeah, traumatize them or traumatize the owner. So I feel the same way about the restaurant question. I want to take my dog to a restaurant like how can I make that happen? Firstly, I shouldn't didn't good. Is it good for the do you want to focus On this meal with your friends, your family, and maybe it's not a good idea, or is your dog really not suitable to be in that situation? And then if he is the runway for training might be longer depending on your runway for training. I wonder how long my runway for training is not like, Oh, I wonder how long? That's a tough question to ask the client first off, like, Oh, that's a good idea. And I'm sure you don't make the nasty face on making but you probably do it very professionally, very tactful. But I'd be like, I don't know what to do. Have you seen your dog? I don't know. Right? Yeah. So so how many people answer that question, I guess with you. You're right. It's probably not a good plan or lay a lot. A lot. Yeah, you know, you're right. We see it on Instagram on social media, and people are doing that. But maybe it's not right for my dog. And I think part of the reason they come to that conclusion as I sell them on the workload that this is going to be right, because it's no longer about you and your dining experience. I don't even want you looking at the menu too long. It's about is my dog comfortable. Is he spotting a dog over there and hard staring it? You know, is he chewing on the thing that I brought him? Yeah, she has to go to the bathroom. So now we're like having toddlers at dinner. Right? And listen, I hate I hate to interrupt you. I was like, that's exactly what it's like picking little young young folks. It's 100% the same thing except I don't know who listens better than dogs or the toddler. So I don't know what would be easier. Kathy Santo trained dogs listen better. Yeah, probably. So I think so. Well, we're gonna get into maybe some ways that you can assess if this is right for your dog, and things that you might do maybe some simple tips for refreshing. What is good dog behavior. After this break, so don't worry, we're gonna get into some things you can use from Kathy Santo training extraordinaire. On the other side of this break, hang with us. Dr. Jenn the vet, and I'm here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Keith lassen. He's got an incredibly interesting story all about full bucket health, my college roommate and that school, housemate. Dr. Rob Franklin and I were collaborating on some cases, both of us were struggling with diarrhea in some of our patients, whether it was after a procedure or after after an illness. So we created a formulation but we didn't want to just create a formulation we also wanted to create a movement and animal health for being able to help animals in need through the use of bark products that we developed that really has resulted in our one for one giving program which we're we're really proud of as much as we are our formulations for dogs, horses and cats. And so if you want to know more about their one for when giving it full bucket, or if you're interested in better supporting your dog, cat or horses, digestive health, head over to full bucket health.com To learn more Merck animal health, the makers of Noby vac vaccines Merck animal health is committed to disease prevention in our animal companions. The nopi vac portfolio of industry leading vaccines empowers veterinarians to have a broader impact on pets and their owners. Merck Animal Health Philosophy is driven by innovation, continuous research and development, ensure the latest technological advances are available to provide reliable protection. So ask your veterinarian about Noby back vaccines for your pets. Hey, pack listeners, your continuing education code for this episode is cc 220012. All right, and we're back. So I know that there are people waiting with bated breath to find out two things. Number one, how long is the runway for training days? And number two? What are like what are things that I how do I assess if my dog is is a good decision for my dog? Number one for me if I say okay, it's great. We're going out with my family. They live with the dog. Maybe the dog knows us. We're going to a great restaurant. Ooh, what is a great restaurant to take a dog to or not? Oh, let's start with that like so. What do you recommend Kathy? An outdoor Well, listen, don't lie. If I come from Miami, you'd be you maybe wouldn't be surprised a ton of people bring their little little bill of dogs inside and they have nice restaurants Not that I ever visited but I heard stories that they have little dogs in the restaurant because these people think it's okay. What do you want? get to that in a minute. But outside restaurants, priority Europe, right? It's very, it's a common practice, the dogs are raised more socially, they're out and about right? The tendency for people is if they have a yard, that's where the dog pretty much primarily lives, right? And they go, they get in the car to go to the vet, the groomer, or hopefully training, but outside of that, they might get a walk around their block. So you're talking about taking a dog to an outdoor situation. And he may not be that familiar with all these sights and sounds and smells. So you know, dogs and food is kind of a thing. So it's like she knows because that Yeah. Maybe it's thick, because that's not that unique. Oh, no, I didn't say that. No, sorry. I'm sorry. Holy moly, but the bonafide expert talk a little bit about what is happening. So yeah. Okay, so, so if, if, like you and that's the thing, because then they show up with us at the veterinarian's office because they ate something inappropriate. And I'll tell you the first thing because that does when I take her out, you know, to eat with me, is vacuum the deck around and under our table. My job, I had a student who I sent to the ER because her dog get a corncob you know, and foreign body stuff. And it's so that happens because people, they have best intentions of paying attention until they don't. And you've got you know, your table and your people but you didn't realize that behind you. There's a kid who just fed your dog something weren't paying attention. Right, just Bassam. I don't know, whatever. They don't eat. Broccoli yet. Is magically quiet under the table until you magically know they were so good. We didn't do it again. Natural, ma'am, is lower intestine blows up and you're happening. Right, exactly, exactly. Okay. So that's, that's point number one is that you have to worry about it like so I would say if you have a dog that's prone to pancreatitis or any type of enter itis or irritable bowel syndrome. Don't take that dog out dining out. I mean, if you can avoid it, I wouldn't. Right? Because it's just too risky. It's just not worth the reward for sure. Yeah. Yeah. The other piece of it is okay, people, people see a dog, unless it's a service dog. And I'm like, Can I pet your dog? Can I help your dog and I and you don't want to be like that jerk. Right. But on the other hand, no, I want to be that jerk. I'm sorry. I'll just say I like to be that jerk. Go ahead. Thing is what I say. Obviously, not in a restaurant. But if somebody on the street said, Oh, can I put your dog on? Like, normally? Yes, but he just threw up and then good answer. Approaching with their dog and they're like, Hey, can my dog treat your dog and you just know this is gonna go sideways really fast. You're like, I'm headed to the vet upper respiratory infection highly contagious. And then they just like scatter. Yes, my neighbors. I'm sure they think it's Munchausen syndrome, because I've never had a dog who is healthy that their dogs destroyed all your dogs are always sick. 25 years. So you know what, though? She brings up a good point. And I mean it Gosh, it's like I could write her a check. This is so fabulous. Because infectious disease is my jam. And when I see a bunch of dogs and people saying, Oh, my dog loves other dogs and they're all nose to nose. I'm going. Like I'm a bit apoplectic because we got a canine influenza, we've got parent and parent influenza, which is the glue that holds infectious respiratory disease together. For dogs. We have mycoplasma, we've got Bordetella we got, like so many pathogens that are excited for dogs to go nose to nose. We've never seen each other. And you know, it's just like kids, you wouldn't let your kid run up and, you know, touch noses with somebody else's kid, especially if they both have snot coming out there. Right? Right. But they do it with dogs and I don't get that. I look at it from the behavior aspect of it. So they all get nose to nose, right? And this one's hackles are up and this one looks like he wants to die and the owner is not reading that and pushing him around. Like you remember that movie The Sixth Sense, but yeah, I see dogfights that's so funny. My glasses, there's dogs outside, I just look at the ceiling and sky. Paying attention because I am going to say something and not everybody is open to strangers accepting oh my gosh, that's the other thing is that if you take your dog dining out with you, you should be prepared for everyone to like feel as though they've heard you ask for their opinion on your dog. Right because they're going to opine. And maybe it's not always what you want to hear. So don't you know if you're if you're super sensitive about people talking about your dog, don't take your dog out. The two biggest hazards, other dogs in the restaurant and small children. Children run away And from a young age, fortunately, they were taught to pet the dog and to kiss the dog. And so then when they can start walking now their eye level, which is why by cases, especially boys 911 are always the highest of any bite cases. And so you're eating and then you are startled, and you see a kid laying on your dog now is your dog prepared, most dogs aren't to handle that there's gonna be barking there might be nipping, and the parents are going to be Oh, so sorry that their child got out of control. But again, reality is, what's the liability for you? What's the cost for the dog emotionally? And, you know, if they are stressed in that situation, you get a good 72 hour window for that cortisol to drop back down for their bucket to not be full. Because when you take them to events like this, and it's really stressful in that compounds on itself. You know, maybe later in the day, somebody does something just normal and the dog spooks at it or an IPS added because there's still stressed out from their day. So there's a lot to unpack. This is why service dogs are so perfectly created genetically through their programs. And then there's a period of time where the ones wash out who can't handle this who aren't bombproof. Right. So, you know, a dog in a bag certainly is a safer situation. But again, isn't the right situation. Especially for the dog is that's the thing, especially for the dog. And I'll tell you that kid thing this, like the ninja toddler is real, like, so. Shadow, like a shadow box shadow shows up, right? Yes. I had codes that I had codes that at the Little League fields, right watching the Little League game. And I'm like, it's totally outdoors. If she will, she wouldn't have an accident because she's because that but if she did, okay, we're outdoors on grass. It's not a big deal. And, you know, people kind of keep their space, except small people. And she was on my lap. I was sitting in a lawn chair, and she was looking over my shoulder, had her paws on my shoulder and was looking over here. And all of a sudden she moved your head funny. And for some reason, I just turned around. There's a little kid like right here, right here. And I and I was like, Oh, no wonder she moved her head. I was like, Oh my God, where do you make more noise? Where did you come from? It's like Halloween Horror Nights every day. Yes. Yes. And so yes. That that you do have to be very, very careful with that. So that's a that's a great point as well. So I want to I want to go back a little bit. You guys dropped a lot of knowledge right there in the last 25 seconds. So if I do and if you ask me if my dog first question, is it right for dogs? And I think we talked about course it's right for my dog, or and so I'm just convinced I'm taking my dog to an outdoor restaurant. I'm okay with that little compromise, and I can take him indoor Steakhouse. Is there are there some things I should be worried about? Me? This is for both of you guys. Should I worry about stuff like vaccinations? Should I worry about all this other kind of stuff? Because what you're talking about socially behavior stuff, but there's also other things. Do you talk about that with your clients, as well, the medical aspect of taking your dog to see other possibly other other dogs? Is that something that the client should worry about? Well, for them to even be a student in the school, they had to be current on all their vaccinations appropriate for the age of the dog, right? There you go. There's some vets and students and it's appropriate for them to run titers on their dogs. So we will accept that as well with a note from the vet. As far as going out, you know, we just expect they have the same level of, you know, responsibility when they are out and about, although, in the restaurant, they're not going to probably meet other dogs, it's mainly going to be people. Right, right. Of course, being fed accidentally. I would I would add something to that question. Is it a good idea for your dog? Is it a good idea for you? Okay, so if you're meeting and it's a serious meeting, or having or an emotional day, or somebody's gonna get proposed to leave? Yes. Prepare a proposal with the dog. Yeah. Right. Which sounds great Instagram, but it always worked out that way. No, but we won't get into that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's, that's the thing. Is it good for you? And then if you say yes, and we're in agreement, even if we're not in agreement, I still will help you. But I'll try to sway you later. When you're when you least expect it. I sense you may have a lot of I told you so is out of your mouth a lot. So we talked about this, I don't want to say I told you so but I really told you 27 times this might happen. So I think the phrases remember last month question and this is my answer. Like it was my answer. Right. I've seen the show before. Yeah, I read the last chapter. It doesn't end well. No, no, no. So I like so I will opine on the infectious P If I knew you would, yes, you know, infectious disease is sort of a jam. And I'll say that it is a risk anytime you take your dog out of their home environment, it's a risk. You know, there's things you do to mitigate that risk, like vaccinate them, keep them from eating things they shouldn't, don't let them wallow in puddles, those sorts of things, but it is is a risk over increase over leaving them at home. And so let's say you take them, so what are you going to do to mitigate the risk? They should all they are now considered a social dog, right? Because they're going out and about. And you may not meet another dog, as Kathy says, Yeah, it's true like and they do try to see you away from other diners, usually, that have a dog because they've also read the last chapter. And so it's, you know, you almost have to seek out that contact, it would seem, however, there may have been a dog there before, and you didn't even see that dog because they're long gone. But some of the pathogens, especially respiratory ones, will linger on surfaces. And so you want to make sure that your dog is vaccinated. And I don't mean just like there's no like universal generic thing labeled vaccine in the fridge at your vet. So you want to have them specifically vaccinated talk to your veterinarian and say, hey, look, I'm planning on taking my dog out to eat with me sometimes I'm planning on taking him to the park I'm planning on taking whatever you're planning on tell them which is why Cathy requires it at her dog training classes is because they're become social dogs once they kind of exit the house and head into the public morass. So at a minimum, I would say the upper respiratory pathogens and I you know, everybody knows I recommend the up the news and it has to include pair influenza, as well as kennel cough as well as other stuff and then you want to get the combo shot people call it right distemper, Parvo pair influenza hepatitis and adenovirus and then you want to get and lepto sorry, DHL BV distemper hepco, distemper, hepatitis lepto, para influenza and Parvo, Parvo is everywhere, you can't avoid it, don't try. And I also recommend canine influenza vaccination for social dogs because of you vaccinate them for all the other respiratory is vaccinated for influenza and rabies Of course, that goes without saying, and I think that's all I have for for the vaccine soapbox good. I hope that's all you think that was worth talking about your dog's immunity like genetics so how are they wired? Like, yeah, my dogs in eight weeks go to dog shows 1200 Dogs I'm taking them everywhere. They never get sick. Don't do that. General people don't do that. Happy does. She's about to tell us why she does that. Because I know what we're covered by with the vaccine but I also feel like their exposure has created their strength of immune I've a 13 and a half year old golden runs around like a puppy. He goes everywhere he goes to school he goes to dog shows. And I think he's been exposed so much that he's just stronger now. Again, it's genetics are amazing. I get dogs from breeders and I know what's behind them. So you know, we're careful. It's not like we're reckless show we have our crate we set up our things. Yeah, I just I think your people from going out. I will tell you though, during the rohner the first year 2020. Dog, you probably saw it kennel cough, your eyes went crazy. 2022 we saw a decrease and I think it's because their exposure was more right. They got out they weren't in a bubble. They're a little immune systems. You know, that worked on so yeah, yeah, I'm all about vaccinations. And I'm all about proper exposure. I was just gonna say, Dr. Jason, that's your favorite constant low level exposure. Yes. But I was much more impressed with during the Rona. I know that was a fan I was like, right why during. That was great. Just rolled off. Like it was like, that's just how we say it now, during the rota was very true. We saw more I saw more dogs being walked ever out there than I ever did before. Yeah. And that that's part of the reason that I think a lot of people now are wanting to take their dogs out to eat with them now that we're we do that more it's like, but now I'm sort of bonded with my dog. You know better so so there's there there was some benefits to all of that for the pets, certainly. And I would agree. So I had a dog my once in a lifetime dog. She went everywhere with me from the time she was like eight nine weeks old. However, I was careful just like you say, I was quite vigilant because not only did I not well Got a sick dog, I had no money to pay for sick dog, and so she could not get sick. But it's very difficult to do that. And so for most people, just, it's just wise to keep your dog away from general public exposures until they're about 20 weeks old. For most people, it doesn't mean that you can't do it correctly and do it well. But that takes a lot of vigilance. And you've got to really understand how all of these pathogens are transmitted. And then and then you're okay. But, but it is a risk. I mean, it is a risk, it is possible any one of your puppies could get sick, it's true, they could get sick sitting at home as well. And so, so it's a risk. So but that's why the recommendations, that's where they stem from, right? Yeah, yeah, but you're right, the immune system of your dog is of consequence. So if you have a dog that is on, you know, a topica, because they're, they have atopy, that's not necessarily a dog, you want to be exposing to the entire world of germs. Right, because we're suppressing their immune system. And so, you know, take into consideration your dog's medical status before you decide to take them out. Out to the restaurant, we could totally go down the rabbit hole now into and what are you feeding your dog? I want your dog stress level like but we won't. This is why I know I don't like dog parks for the what you're talking about. But I also don't like it because there's behavioral things that occur and we get a lot of dogs training us who are bullies or who have been attacked from it. Yeah, the only reason we don't call them disease infested fight clubs is because dog park rolls off the tongue. So yeah, we don't we don't always like the truth. We like to like label. That's right. So great. So you know what we call them. In fact, we did an entire episode on this with with our friend, our friend, Dr. Martin, an internist. We the there's an episode, folks, if you're worried about dog parks, perhaps we will put a little thing up in the corner here for you to click on, or perhaps not. Is it's called dog park. Does it equal assess pool? Yeah, exactly. For both. We talked about everything from both the disease aspect and the behavior aspect and more up your alley. So which is also both? Both that so I don't know. Do you guys think that there are more? I don't know. We're headed with behavioral questions, but I just have one do we do you think there are more people taking their dogs out now than before because you guys both said, um, you probably won't run into another dog. But here in Central Florida, Central Florida, where there's like three people. I've I took my I took my dog to an outdoor restaurant and guaranteed $3 To walk by three, which is which is quite it's not like they're isolated. And when I lived in southern Florida, it was like a dog park at the restaurant, their dogs. Everyone's very, quote unquote, dog friendly town. I'm not even sure what that means. But it was accepted socially, to take your dogs out. So I don't know, I didn't really pay attention. I don't know if they're more nowadays. Maybe Corona. But more Ronin dogs, right? You know that? Because your vets and you see your practice is like it at capacity, probably like everybody else. Yep. Yeah. And so there are more dogs and they were out and about a lot in the beginning because there's nothing to do. But now we're going back to work. And the thing about people going back to work, their dog still needs to get walked, right. So they're either with us in daycare, or they've hired somebody with questionable abilities possibly to walk their dog who perhaps walks their dog past your table at the restaurant. And then we have a situation while they're looking at Instagram or something like that. Cuz that's that's the Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the vigilance part that you have to have it you have to be prepared. Again, like we talked about where the kid? Do you ever take a young child out to a restaurant and have a relaxing meal? I don't think so. Especially sleep. I was like, when you're really young. It's great. Yeah, they're really young. You just when they're awake, you just turn around and go home. Tell people, okay, you're in a restaurant with your dog. Maybe you just took you and your dog, which would be a good first step, right? What do you do when you have to go to the bathroom? Yes. Are you taking your dog? Does he know how to get into a stall? Does he know how to like finally. So now we're talking in the service dog realm like? I don't think so. Like you told me you can't eat breakfast without him jumping on the table in your house. That's a bad. That's a bad one. We don't want to do that. We that's a big call that a long runway dog. Longer than normal. Yeah, the understanding that you have that dog. It's kind of hard. Right? We're talking about your dog. And you don't want to think of your dog as not being able to achieve something it's like because to a lot of people a dog should be like an app. Right? So you hit the button, and the behavior happens. Do the same every time. Is that true? That's not true. You're saying is not true. That is the best analogy. Oh my god, I love it because we are seeing a lot of dogs that were that were purchased and then raised during Corona. So they're used to their owners being home 100% of the time, they don't see anyone else. No Man, No crate training because nothing, nothing, nothing right through the ceiling. Yes. And so they bring him to the vet. And a lot of times the owners will not allow time to probably 50% of time the owners say, I'm so sorry. We did this to him. Because we got him during the pandemic. And we did this to him and the dogs go look, dog is nuts. Like, you know, he's not nuts. He just is overwhelmed with processes. He doesn't know how to make conflicting signals, right. So that's why like the lady who started with me as a student, because her dog pulled the tablecloth off the table, and a restaurant was playing tug of war with it was funny, that to me, he knows better. And I was like, well, that's up for debate, because you've never practiced at a restaurant. But additionally, let's say she didn't know better. People know not to drink and drive and text and drive and do things. But people still do it anyway. So like, you know, I'm going for it. Yeah, they make mistakes, they make mistakes, they do. No understanding about what is see they come from another planet, and the planet they come from, they fight each other, they jump on each other, and it's fantastic. And then they come to our plan. And we're like, well, we'll watch that crap. Don't buy that. They're like, I got nothing else. This is what I do. Right? Your how you think things should go and how they think things should go. It's a species difference. I love that we need the Star Trek universal translator from the world of dog might make these too much. I don't think Kathy was that it might make things a lot easier to understand on what on earth are saying, right? You would still need your runway, you probably wouldn't need the runway to do so except for Leroy, who's laying down behind Dr. Johnson right now. dead to the world. So, okay, so let's get some tips. Because, and let's just imagine that you are going to dine out with the cutest, although that's not really a characteristic that's helpful when dining out cutest French Bulldog ever. And anyone in particular, so we could just feel I guess you got three guesses in the first, right? No, but um, so let's say that I have a dog who is reasonable, right? So this is a dog where she has been to social situations. She's fully vaccinated, all the preventive measures up to date, she's on all her Prevention's. Because that's the other thing, don't take a dog that's riddled with fleas to a restaurant. You don't want your dog laying there scratching their fur off in front of people, because you may think it's okay at home, but you will really be embarrassed, but nobody else does. Right? And so that you know that, like I have a reasonable dog. So tell us the avatar of a dog that would be reasonable to consider dining out with. Okay, so this dog has been out in social situations is not a puller doesn't jump on people. He's not a Barker. You've chained him to a mat. So it's a yoga mat, or it's a blanket, right and you teach him go to play. So you have that nailed down at home, you've proved it. You can do it in any room in your house, you can do it in your yard, you can go on a walk and throw the mat down until the dog to go to mat and he does happily. So that's something you can take with you and put under the table. Next, you want to bring something to occupy the dog now unlike toddlers who would probably be okay with the coloring book and crayon for sure jobs would be okay with crayons do they eat the rainbow poop. So what we want to do is create something that we can bring for the dogs. So I like something that's frozen for the duration of it. And it's whatever your dog loves, but doesn't get all the time. Because people say well, I'm giving my dog treats and doesn't really like them. We're out of the house. So that's because the environment is much more exciting, right? So your crappy little drive dog biscuit that he gets in the kitchen when nothing's going on. It's like when you leave the country you know your currency rate drops. Same thing with dogs leave the house, right? drops it tanks. So bring something high value Now we don't want to be feeding from the table. Right? So when you get settled, perhaps it's a frozen dog puzzle toy. So we like the cons with there's a lot of them out there. The Warby you can pre fill it with peanut butter or perhaps the dog's meal. So if you feed kibble, you can wet the kibble, put it in there, pack it with some peanut butter jar, baby food, whatever, freeze it, and then bring it with you can I bring a cooler and then you put under the table and you're good to go. I would say, eat us like you're not going to sit there for five four. Senator if this is your maiden voyage, maybe go to Starbucks and have like tea, and then that debt out, right? Oh, we survived 15 minutes are good. And then you can build up to that. Yes, that makes sense. And I will tell you that a friend of the show who is a board of veterinary behaviorists should, that's what she says the same thing. Paraphrase is not high value. She doesn't say high value, because she says, You shove liverwurst in their mouth. But she means liverwurst for like, whatever their their thing is that they cannot live without if they see it, right. Like they never get it. The only time they get it is when they're being good in that situation that's challenging for them. So yes, that is that is excellent. And you also have to audition this tree, right? So people might say, oh, liverwurst. That's a great idea and get deliverers and then go into the situation and give it to the dog and the hell is this? Yeah. Have you ever seen it before? Right? Make sure it is your dog's high value? Yes. Before you get in the situation. You're like, now I got nothing. And then, okay, so so that's all about focused on my dog. But yes, you know, you could have a dog that's perfectly well behaved. But they encounter poorly behaved dogs, and poorly behaved owners. Okay, good, you know, and so what, how? What should I do? If someone approaches my table says, Oh, my gosh, you brought your dog I brought my dog, my dog loves all other dogs. Can they play in there? Before they even ask it? They're letting their dog on a long leash the dogs under the table? With you're like, wow, what did you just exit, you get out? Because here's the thing, the conversation that you have, with all the really good points that you're going to bring up, you're going to when you're on your deathbed, wish you had those 15 minutes back because they didn't help you. Everything you're gonna say is going to be countered with some other thing. Oh, but my dog loves dogs. Oh, but my kids, the best one, I will tell you as a student, I had a situation like this. And she said, My dog is reactive to other dogs. And the woman says, That's awesome. Because my dog needs his butt kicked. He's really rude. Like, what? Oh, my God, I can't. That's what I'm doing. I'm exiting because I'm protecting my dog. I'm protecting the owner from me. Yes, oh, gotta go got a phone call, you know, and then you can just say the restaurant, I'm gonna call it my credit card from the phone, we gotta go. It's just not worth what's going to happen. So that's brings up another point that people who take their dogs out to restaurants have to be willing to do that. Right? You have to be really not, you don't want to seek out that that confrontation. But if it does occur, the best thing for everybody is for you to leave. And yes, it's uncomfortable for you. And it may be ruin your plans for the evening. But it's the best thing for you and your dog and the whole situation. And sometimes when we do that, we don't necessarily I know I would think about that, ever. But now Now I might. So that's a very, very good point. And that's part of the all of that cost benefit analysis. Before getting into a situation like this. What am I willing to do? Listen, if you're going to lunch with people you don't actually want to go to lunch with and maybe even five minutes looks like oh man. Well, yeah, nobody was nobody with kids has ever done that. Never not. Never Never. Yeah, so Okay, so that's for the the additional diner that approaches you. What about the one that sitting because I actually had this happen with cozy that sitting out on a deck in a lovely coastal town. And there was a these folks they were across the deck so that like many tables of people in between us, but their dog they had like 60 or 70 pound dog. And it was just doing that the hard stare. Right. And and of course, it took us a while to realize that this was not like an adoring stare because the whole world adores her. And you know because that is she doesn't back up. Right like that's who she is she he says bring it Yeah, she doesn't break up she's like really? Really my mom's a vet bring it you know, like I won't have any scars. No, I'm just kidding. Really good point about a dog that looks like cuz that right so to to another dog if they've never seen a dog with ears up. Right? It looks like you're like It's like somebody with bad Botox right? You're looking at them and you're like what like what and they're like what they look like equals bad Botox. People think the dogs think and they're like, are you looking at me because that Yeah, cuz that's like you want to go I want to go. I look like this. I'm not okay. But if you want to go So in that situation, you might try rearranging the seating. Maybe you have your back to the dog, and you're of course paying attention to it or again, I assess the owner, to the look aware that they look strong. No, they don't look, either those things I'm possibly leaving immediately. Yeah, well, they they had the dog that didn't, I was not concerned that the dog was going to break away from the owner, right and get over there. But they, they did not look like friendly owners like they, they were unaware of what their dog was communicating. Right? And so they were just easily escalate like, I'm always on the side of, it probably wouldn't, but it might. So I'm done removing myself from the situation, because it's that 1% of those situations that and everybody's come to me with a dog bite case, whether their dog did the biting or they got there. And they always say the same thing. It didn't feel right. But I didn't want to be rude. I didn't want to be awkward. I didn't want to whatever. And then and it came to this. So my feeling is trust your gut. If your gut is saying it's a bad thing, then you have to listen to it and go and everybody has a really good gut when it comes to that. They just express it. They don't want the kid to pet their dog, but they don't want to appear rude well and can pet your dog nipped him. So you shouldn't have, you know, stepped in, you have to be your dog's advocate and protect her. Yeah, that's Well, that's true. So and that's the thing. That's why don't let little kids pet because that ever because they're right at eye level for her. Sometimes she makes a mistake. If they make, you know, regular little kid face that hurts. She feels she reads it as Oh, jump at me. You know, and so it's just do like, Oh, you want to see a trick and ask her to spin or pause that. Like, you can entertain the crowd while their parents are running to catch up. But okay, stay there. We're gonna watch, I'm gonna do check. And the trick is not like you leave it but you could you're like, you're presuming that the parents are paying attention and think it's bad. They're not running to catch their kid. They're usually like, Oh, can I pet her too? And I'm like, No, sometimes she's mean, nope, nope, nope. Because if she bites them, right, if they make a mistake, and she reacts like a dog, then they're all mad at her. And it's illegal situation than for coset. And she can't come back from that. They're not little people in fur coats. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And as much as people want to call them for babies and, and sort of blur the line between what you have, they are a completely different species with drives that they don't even understand. So, yeah, and if I was a dog, I would bite all little bitty hands. And because they're just mean, not purposely, right, just don't know. And on top of that, there, so and then this is the other restaurant problem. He humans aren't trained to interact with dogs properly most of the time. So it's like, your dog might be afraid, and somebody's approaching and then the dog cowers, and they approach more like more. Can you imagine if you were afraid of a tarantula, and it got closer to you with this leg out? Does that make you feel better or worse? So that's what dogs are saying. Like, I don't know how many signals to give you that I'm freaking. At. Right, exactly. Sure. Other hazards? Yeah. So people and dogs and bugs, the pathogens and subcategories, you know, people feeding your dog, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I think we, I think we have some great food for thought here. Dr. Jason, was you got any other questions for Kathy? No, I'm just I'm just wondering, really, how long is my runway, that's I would have behaved very differently. And almost every one of us situate as a human very differently in almost every one of those situations. So I'm thinking maybe it's me. I'm very, I'm trying to be self aware here. Okay. I don't want people to think this isn't something you can do. I think I'm more on the side of should you, you know, then that's what you say, if I love people, you can do something. But does that mean you should do it? Right for your dog? Is it right for the situation? And then train through it? And then you should have a good experience if you're very vigilant. So yeah, but I think that makes sense. And really, is that the first the first question is, is it? Is it right for you? Is it right for your dog, and then give your dog some tools? Right? Like, give them give them something where they're comfortable. They know they're doing the right thing, regardless of what's going on around them, which I think go to place and having the mat. I think it's a good idea. And then don't expect him to just sit there and watch the world go round. If that's not their normal behavior, give him something to do with that. And so I think those are all wonderful, wonderful things. If there's one thing that it doesn't have to be about dining out with your dog, but what is there one thing that you wish every single human knew about dogs they like you. You just wait. Like if I could tell the whole world this and buy him a Coke, I would do with other companies. Okay? There's a lot but let's stick with you only get one this is Dr. Jones one thing, we got one thing, one thing, okay? I wish that people would realize that dogs don't generalize like we want them to. So the sit in your kitchen isn't the set that you're gonna get in the road or when it's busy or if a bike goes by. Right? So dogs have to understand, under what circumstances do you require me to do this? So if you taught your dog a brilliant sit in the house, and you went outside, and he saw a squirrel, and he didn't sit, the question to your dog is to choose to know that you have this world and the dog would be like, No, I have to talk about I didn't know. And so that's where proofing comes in. So proofing is teaching the dog that no matter what component, so you did everything right in your house. You got the food and it's going well, but then you have to take it on the road, especially to areas where you're considering taking your dog and you'd like that obedience to hold over. Yeah, because distractions are real. Right? I think that's a wonderful, I love that. I'm totally stealing that. Yeah. Did you know that even when you see a squirrel you have to sit? No, don't don't. The rule says Squirrel. Squirrel. I'm supposed to get it. Like you're kidding me. No, no. So well, this is Cathy's maiden show with us. We do hope that you'll come back. But in the meantime, would you please tell everyone where they can find more about Kathy theater dog training? Sure. It is online. And it is Kathy Santa dog training.com. We have the school in Wildwood, New Jersey. We do daycare, we do private lessons. We do group classes. We do all of it. And then I have online courses as well. So no matter where you are, I have a book i i write a column for AKC, like, there's a lot but it's all in the bio. It is it is in. If you go to her website, you can find all kinds of great information. I did peruse it. It's lovely. If you are wondering if you need training for your dog, if you're wondering, what is training, go to Kathy's website, because she has some really incredible information to help you decide what type of training is going to be right for your dog, and really help you manage your expectations because not all dogs are created equal. But they're all wonderful. I think if you're wondering if you need training for your dog, I think the the general answer is yes, yes. If you're having to wonder that and yes, you do. So maybe not a long runway like me, maybe it's a short runway. You know, it's all different. But we have a podcast dog sense with Kathy Santo and it talks about behaviors like this, but they're really super short episodes are like 15 minutes. So they are our take your dog school, here. Yes, school. And then you've just learned something. And so I think that's really valuable. Yeah, I Ah, yes, I didn't notice that. So her podcast is pretty fantastic. And it is bite sized pieces for folks who are just kind of jumping into it. You don't have to be a dog expert. You just have to love dogs and love your dog. And you'll get something out of it. So thank you so much for joining us, Kathy. We really really appreciate it some incredible stuff here the best I think, is that Botox, or do you want to go for inviting me really? Yes. So that's all we have for you today. So if it's right for you and your dog head out and enjoy some brunch or some supper on a deck, I'm Dr. Jenn the vet and I'm Dr. Jason. I will catch you guys on the next episode. This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses, Merck animal health, the makers of Noby vac vaccine