Ep 51: Hemp, CBD, and pets! Oh my!

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This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses.

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Hello and welcome to another episode of chats with the Chatfields, we are your hosts, I'm Dr. Jen the vet,

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and I'm Dr. Jason,

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if you have not yet subscribed to our show, 

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Just hit that subscribe button today. And if you want to reach us and you've got a message full of love and positivity, you can reach me at Jen@Chatfieldshow.com

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And for anyone else who wants the honest truth, you can reach me at Jason@Chatfieldshow.com

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All right, we're gonna get right into it, folks, no messing about no fussing around because we have a great friend of the show. joining us again today, we are going to be talking all about what's new in hemp, and with pets. And Jason, do you know what most people call them?

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Know what most people call hemp.

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CBD.

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Oh, CBD. That's what I call it. I saw I was sitting in most people's situation. Yeah, you are always worried about you asking me these questions. And I'm not ready for some off the wall questions. So I just say I don't know, rather than open my mouth and prove to everybody how much I don't you

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don't know. Okay, well listen, let's bring the expert in so we can stop like being so ambiguous. So we are welcoming back into the chat room. Dr. Joe wakShlag, he is a double board certified veterinarian, a specialist in both nutrition and veterinary sports medicine and rehabilitation. He is currently a professor at Cornell University's College of Veterinary Medicine, in the clinical nutrition and in and also in sports medicine and rehabilitation services. And he's the Section Chief of their nutrition service. This guy's busy. That's awesome. But in addition to that, he also has a side hustle is if there wasn't enough nutrition going on in his world. He is also the chief medical officer for ellevet sciences. And he's been doing that since 2019. So I'm so glad that he was able to carve out some time to join us in the chat room. With all of that going on. Welcome back, Dr. Joe.

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No, thanks for having me. I had such a good time. Last time, I figured maybe it'd be worth giving people a little update on what's happened since since we last spoke a few years back. So

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yes, I feel I feel like these days investment if we don't keep up with stuff on like, twice a year basis. we're way behind. I mean, stuffs just happening so fast.

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That's for sure. It's it's a it's a crazy time for veterinarians. Let's put it that way where we're overworked and out six months and in appointments. It's just you know, it's great for the profession, but well mind boggling. Yes, it is.

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It is although I don't know if Dr. Jason falls into that crazy part.

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Definitely he just crazy to begin. That's

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No, no, we're joking. Okay, so let's get some really picked up all

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of my slides. By the way. That's

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what happened. That's right.

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I'm doing the opposite. So we even it out. So I guess everybody is overworked Joe, and I've kind of balanced Chilean equation. That's what's

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your spread and gospel, which is good.

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Holy moly. All right, friends, let's bring it back to reality just a little bit. So I am excited because I still get a lot of questions from clients, about CBD about him, and about what to use, when to use and all of that. So the last time that you were on, I know, we were sort of dispelling the myth that everyone was was at that point thinking that hemp or CBD in their pet was going to be the panacea to fix anything and everything that was was not yet addressed in their pet. And so we talked about how that that's actually not it's not true. It can't fix everything. But are we supposed to still call it Do we still call it CBD? It we call it him? Like? Yeah, there's,

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I think, I think the the reality is, is, you know, back since since we've talked, we've kind of started seeing more and more literature come out and certain products may be better than others. You know, we kind of have, we'll say, two different classifications, I'll call it sort of broad spectrum hemp and then we've got hemp isolate. So I can isolate some of these cannabinoids, right so CBD can be an isolate or it can be from the whole hemp plant. And so when it's from whole hemp, it has a lot of other little things in it like terpenes and other minor cannabinoids. So

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Jason, do you have a dictionary? Yeah, I feel like we need a dictionary, right? Yeah,

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I know. I'm hoping you were gonna ask me any questions. We got like, I want to make eye contact with the teacher. I'm like, Okay, that's great. I'll write that down. Any questions? All right. Sounds super awesome. Super. You know any way to break that down even further. It's for the rest of the world to understand.

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That's what I'm hoping for cannabinoids versus terpenes versus this one. Uh, what are we looking at? What's well? I

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mean, yeah, I think I think, you know, back in the day when we first talked a lot of people just talking about CBD, right cannabidiol and cannabidiol is pretty much in everything. And I think just what we're starting to see is that there are differentiations in the products. I mean, you know, sometimes people will try a CBD isolate right, or suggest just that one molecule, and maybe they'll see an effect, maybe they won't, you shouldn't just chalk it up to that doesn't work, you should then maybe move on to a whole hemp product to see if that's any better than the CBD isolate. And so, you know, I think as veterinarians, we've slowly watched sort of the literature kind of evolve, right. And last time, we were talking about pain and osteoarthritis, and, and so at that point, it was like, Well, we know it has some application to pain and osteoarthritis. Now, we're kind of starting to say, well, we may have other applications. And so things like seizure control have now been pretty well worked out in the vet literature, that it can be helpful as an adjunct to the other meds that your dog could be on. We're also seeing itchiness and dogs being resolved in a couple of studies now, too. So it's one

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of those 30 years, right. I mean, that's, that's, you just said that like nothing. But that's a pretty big, big problem. The Yeah, if you think because everyone, you know, we get lots of questions. It's a allergy, this allergy did that, alert it to the world? And you're saying maybe there's some literature saying, hey, this can help that that can alleviate some of those symptoms.

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Yeah, I mean, I think now we've got not only the elephant study that we did, that was, you know, pretty well, good, randomized controlled study that showed that it did owners really liked it for the pitch. And then And then, you know, there are a couple of other we'll call them open label or people I've used it for it and said, Yeah, we put this on top or whatever the dogs already on. And the dogs are less itchy. So there's, there's becoming, I will just say, there's more and more evidence suggesting we now not only have indication for you know, good old fashioned arthritis dog, now we have indication for for itch and seizure. So, you know, we said at the beginning, it's not great for everything. It's not a panacea. We know it may be something that can be utilized for these three conditions now pretty well. Right. Okay, so

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I have a question about that. And so I'm just gonna jump right into the deep end of the itch thing, because I feel like Dr. Salas, like definitely is going to be wanting to hear this right. She's the dermatologist that joins us in chat room. So, so how do we and this is a question we may not know yet, but So okay, so it makes sense to me that it would be effective for dogs with osteoarthritis, right? Or pets. I mean, we keep saying dogs. Do we know that? Are people using this in cats too?

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Yeah, yeah, we're, we're starting to see it use more and more in cats. And I'll say that not a lot of randomized controlled studies, but there is now some stuff that we're working on, and we think it may be good for quote, unquote, the, we'll call it crazy cat, right, the cat that's, you know, going around chasing your ankles and run around attacking the other cat in the household, right?

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Behavior Modification that's, like with multi cat households. Right?

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Right. I think that's a bigger issue and in the cat world, in the dog world, and so, yeah, we're starting to see some some real I mean, every time we do call them lunch and learns as its as a company, it's kind of like the number one thing we hear from the veterinarians is that yeah, I gave it to my cat and my cat hated my husband and now he sleeps next to him, you know, things like that. So, okay, okay. Mental tuning sometimes. Yes,

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right. Okay, so So okay, so that wow, okay, so there's the cat so we just you guys he just dropped like a huge knowledge bomb in the chat room. So so we have crotchety dogs right arthritic dogs that it's helpful for we have seizure disorders that we know that it is effective on. So when you talk about the itch with CBD, or an end is it CBD or is it just an overall hemp product? Or do you know which cannabinoid it is? That's typically the edge or does do I care? I guess,

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I mean, yeah, I guess do we care? Well, I mean, you know, we did the we have the only folks who say, you know, good, good randomized, controlled study out there. Kind of going down that route. And of course, we're a whole hemp product development. So we're gonna say that, well, we know that this product works. I can't definitely tell you what you pick up at the farmers market is going to work the same way. Because everything's a little different. Hello,

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go Hello, gas station shoppers. Don't be picking your stuff up at the gas station friends get Different veterinarian. Okay. Yeah, no,

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no gummies Oh, my. So So you know, I think they can we talk about the edge, you know, our study we did go into, we'll call that the inflammation portion as well as the itch portion, the pruritis that is chewing on your paws and the scratch in your ears. And we saw that what we resolved was the the, we'll just say the neurologic response to the edge. And that starts to make a little sense, because we know we affect, you know, oh a, it's the neurologic response, it's dampening that that will just say that propriate or that that perception of pain, right? And so we're basically dampening through the nervous system to perception on the itch. So the dog doesn't know that it's got skin disease, right? So he doesn't doesn't say, Oh, I gotta chew my paws, because they're feeling kind of, you know, kind of uncomfortable, right? Well, I guess

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that's what that was my point. Like, I have not heard this itch piece yet. And so like, that's, that was my concern, like, what? Is it stopping the inflammation that's producing the itch? Or is it sort of breaking that communication chain in the system that says, Hey, dude, we eat right there, go scratch that. And it sounds like it breaks that communication chain so so that we can get time to fix whatever's causing the itch, without the dog continuing to just scratch? Right?

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Well, I mean, I think that's always the thing. As veterinarians, we always worry that if you, you know it your ear, you're going to excoriate the skin, you're going to have a secondary infection, you're going to chew your paws, you're going to have an infection. So what we feel is that it's really good for stopping the edge. So you don't get that secondary infection, and then at the vet three more times, to treat them with antibiotics or antifungals, or whatever. So that's kind of been the nice part about this is that we have a lot of drugs as you know, to help the itch, but they don't work all the time, or they stop working. So this just becomes another thing too. You know, for that mild itch. Maybe you put it on top the first thing right, so you try your anti histamines, you try the all of that before you go to some of these big guns that may have more side effects. Right. Well,

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but also, I think that for a lot of pets, and you know, our behavior friends in the chat room, we certainly I think now we have to have like an episode on behavior where we also talk a little bit about CBD for that, because a lot of dogs that it becomes a habit. It becomes a habit. And even though whatever stimulated the itch initially, for the first three years, right, that they were looking at PA is gone. They still they still do it. It's a soothing behavior. But maybe now because before we didn't really have stuff that's good at addressing that habit that has formed, but I'm here and maybe this is a great option for that.

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Yeah, I think in terms of that behavioral piece, that's often what we see is, you know, you've got that we've had a great case of Malinois, who had a lot of vocalizing behaviors and whatnot, as well as the osteo arthritis. And they said, Yeah, we think he's more comfortable, but we're even happier about the fact that he doesn't get up and pace right after he's not barking at everything that moves. Right. So that was kind of like the answer the nice, you know, two for one special sometimes. Yes.

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Okay. All right, Jason, I interrupted you earlier because I got so excited about this whole new component here.

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Right? Yeah, but I already forgot. I was just writing down stuff when you get through talking about all the wonders that is CBD inhale. I have some have some questions about formulation and and and how to apply it and all that kind of stuff. And that's probably going to be a little bit a little bit later.

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Okay, well, let's let's do this. Let's let everyone recover from the fact that I had no idea that we could use this for itch. And we'll take a break. We'll be right back.

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And we're back so hopefully you can recover from the giant knowledge bombs that just went off in the chat room with Dr. Dr. Joe telling us about the common common clinical thing that hemp can be used to effectively treat that we know because there's science behind it. There's data we're not just making it up or feeling like it works. We know that it works And so now we're gonna, we're gonna talk about some of the nitty gritty about these products, and what's available. And I think, Jason, you mentioned it earlier.

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What did I mention some other stuff down? Listen, I'm just curious in relation of how to give it like, are we talking topical oral, I can't imagine there's injectable spray. I mean, there's this this. I'm very excited about this, this stuff, I think it's got a lot of applications. And there's many ways to sort of use it. And I still feel like, it's the iceberg, right? We see the kind of the tip and there's so much more underneath, and we're just gonna keep discovering stuff. And every time we talk to you, it's something else, you just rolled off the edge today. And that just blew Dr. Jen's mind. Like, I'm not going to stop hearing about that for two weeks now. Like, it's crazy. That's nothing to you, but that's huge. So I'm just curious about if there's any new or different or exciting, you know, formulations in the in the upcoming future? Yeah,

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I mean, I think this is where, you know, the cannabinoid science we'll just say is starting to take off, right? You know, we know that the product from ellevet through some of these clinical studies does have these applications. But you know, we're talking about something that our product is CBD and CBD a now people don't hear about CBD a very often, right, right. So CBD A is actually the native cannabinoid that's found in the hemp plant that's growing, as soon as I dry it and extracted, it becomes CBD, we actually have the ability to keep the CBD in there. Right? So it's a half and half blend of CBD and CBDa. Now, if you start looking at CBDa literature, nobody studies it, even in the human realm, or the rodent realm, very poorly studied. But now in veterinary medicine, actually, we're kind of leading compared to our human counterparts, where they're actually using CBDa. We like that. Yeah, right, exactly. It's a first, right, we're always taking what we learned from humans and trying to apply it CBDa. If we go across species now, and I talked about cows, they fed whole hemp to cows, which has only the CBDa and, and some of the other will call them acidic molecules. And they've shown that they can dampen inflammation and make cows more comfortable on dairy farms. Right? So CBDa has application here. So we're different, of course, then then some of the other products you'll get. So that's why I say, you know, we know CBDa gets into the blood and it gets into the body a lot better than CBD does. So maybe that's why we're seeing some things that other companies might not see. Does CBD work? Yes, CBD does work for pain. But I

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think that's a great point. Because we do have to say, when we talk about supplements, nutraceuticals and stuff like that, is in the US. Those are not regulated like drugs. And so it is important with like, which formulation which company, what label you pick, because you have to, you're trusting that what they're telling us in the bags in the bag. And so I think that I mean, that's one reason this is not when you want to go generic, you want to go name brand. And that's why you talk to your veterinarian, and you get one that they've investigated, that they trust that they they know is in the bag. I mean, for me, I trust you Dr. Joe. So I feel like if you're telling me that's what's in the bag, it's what's in the bag. And and then when you see that clinical response, or you don't see it, then then you know what's going on. It's not like Well, was there even any any stuff and more variable taken away that you? Yeah.

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Well, I mean, that's sort of the problem with the nutraceutical market is veterinarians see tons of things every year that are released? And then they're like, well, where's my data? And then their vet goes, I can't really prescribe or I can't recommend this this type of nutraceutical without a little bit of data. And then he asked him for the data. And so, you know, you got to ask as veterinarians and that's what you should be talking to your veterinarian about as a pet owner. It's like, what have you seen data on? Right? And well,

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we know that for pet owners 80% of them trust a product more when a veterinarian is involved in the formulation, right. And so at

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Big percent I think it was there's no no, I think there should be like 95 Right. Trust products more than veterinarians and it's only 80% Like, centers doing I don't create

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the data, I just share it with you and I find it okay, so it's just something I know. Robot that

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Dr. Jin od did she didn't she said do something different? I'm gonna try this. It's just

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telling you know, they trust a product more but veterinarian is involved in the formulation right? So we see that things so we're seeing that with right now with Le vet right that's why we're talking about it because there's lots of products on the market Hello gas station. But you don't trust that that's what's in the bag. And that's that there's no toxins in there. Because then you know, a whole episode we talked with you about like, how pure is the product because there's all kinds is heavy metals and stuff that can be contained in a hemp derived product that you don't want. And so want to make sure that you don't have that. Yeah,

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I think I think that just goes back to, to, you know, getting products that have, you know, sort of some some check and measure and the National Animal supplement council at least has that check and measure. And so, you know, companies that at least have that seal, you can trust a little bit more of having what it says it has in it. And then, you know, secondly, it's like, you know, any good hemp company's got a product on the market, has done the testing for heavy metals, he's done the testing for pesticides and solvents from the extract as mycotoxins things that can come through in the plant. So I mean, a good company is going to do all that and won't release it until actually passes that certificate of analysis. So, I mean, he should people should be talking to companies about that. And you know, if you get something the farmers market, yes. Do you guys have a certificate of analysis? Is it free of this stuff? If they go, Oh, well, I grow it up here in my backyard, and I just, you know, I squish it with my feet, just like grapes, and then I put it into the

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gotta be good. So now.

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All right, okay, right. It's all organic. It's organic. That's right.

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All right. Well, you're questioning me It's organic. That's right. And if we say

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it's organic, that means it's magical. Automatically. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so So is is it? So is, is this something? There's something we're giving orally, right? We're not injectable,

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I think to, to, to Jason's point is that, you know, they're they're actually now our studies. And since we last talked, where they said, you know, we're going to try and put a transmucosal on the gums of a dog or cat and see if it gets absorbed. And it's been shown that oral is still probably the best way to get it in. You know, they've even done a trans rectally and showed it didn't get in, if you want to give your dog an enema, a CBD? No.

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But I mean, that's funny, but it doesn't it does not get absorbed very well. I think that's a no, no.

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So it's like oral still seems to be the best way. And then the injectable stuff. It's like well, that's, that's bit complicated. And it's not something that you can give to an owner and say reliably that you can inject your dog a once a week with this specific formula. So I mean, oral seems to be the best way and, and usually should be in an oil or some kind of food base because it gets absorbed better when it's with food. And so this is, this is one of these things, it's easy for the owner, because it's not like oh, you have to give it an hour before you feed or two hours after putting it in with the food promotes the absorption in general. So

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just not butter. Not Butter. Yeah, right. Yeah, it wasn't there. That one case? Yeah, there's that one case of like rancid, butter containing? THC. Yeah,

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right. Yeah. Right. We we don't want high THC in any of these products. And that's what's been nice is that if you look across the board, at most of the products that are on the market for dogs and cats, not humans, the THC levels are extremely low. They're below the federal guidelines. And so most of the companies do a pretty darn good job of keeping it below the THC threshold that's allowable in a hemp product. So we don't worry too much about that THC effect. But yeah, you're right, there was this whole thing where somebody gave butter that really caused the dog to get pretty darn loopy. And it was part of the we'll say toxicity and, and we don't we don't worry about that too much with the hemp products in the vet arena, which is great.

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Yeah, okay. Jason, I know you're looking down. You have another question? Are you ready? No, I just I felt like you did.

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I have several things. But you what you my question. I think you already answered it. I mean, how and we're just we just kind of kind of glossed over it, how much? How much are we following the human because there's all kinds of human, there's gummies out there, and there's all this kind of stuff. So how, and it seemed like they just kind of stopped and said, okay, just take some gummies in solves all of your, whatever problems you might you might have, whether whether it's whether it's restless, or you're nervous, or you're anxious, whatever. And that's what humans tend to do. How much does the veterinary industry follow the humans? Or is it even better? Like you said, we're, as an industry kind of making strides ahead of the human industry in terms of research and, and really getting into the weeds of what's what's happening with this. hemp products? Yeah,

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I mean, I think I think I think what we're seeing, which is kind of interesting is that dogs and cats actually absorb CBD a lot better than people do. And that may be why we're seeing better clinical responses. Okay. And so in the human world, but yeah, yeah, they're given huge doses. I mean, we're talking about, you know, two to four milligrams per kilogram body weight and a dog or a cat. In the human world. They're given 10 and 20 milligrams. So and we Actually Adela vet just finished looking at humans, right. And so I was telling you about this whole idea that CBD and CBDa have different absorption in dogs and cats seem to absorb CBD a better maybe two to three fold better. Up to fourfold we'd looked at it and humans, humans absorbed CBDa 20 fold better than they absorbed CBD so they just don't absorb CBD very well and every species is going to be different so much we go, can't really go by the guidelines of dog and cat, right? So

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CBD again is the native form not not so before you dry it and extract it. That's what's actually in the plant. Yeah, it's

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like if you went and just started chewing on a hemp plant, you would get more CBDa than you would anything. And

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that's easy. That's absorbed better, huh? That's it? Yeah,

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it's like, it's that's the stuff we're finding out in the dog and cat world that the human world doesn't even know. And we're, we're finally showing that, you know, hey, humans might benefit better Fridays acids that CBDa. So, you know, a lot to learn. I mean, you know, this is a new field. Even in humans, it wasn't till 2018 that we could actually really study it because it was now federally legal to us. That's crazy. It's like,

26:16

it was like yesterday, it really was right. Yeah, six, six years ago, but like, especially because it was pre blip. Right? Like it was pre COVID Blip. And so it was a big deal. And then, and then COVID Just eclipsed everything in the news that no one was talking about anything except COVID. And I was like, oh, let's get back to what were we talking about? Yeah, that happened? Well, we were talking about CBD and him and how we're going to do so a lot of the human products that people ask me about for their pet are these oil like CBD oil? You know, because there's all these shops that have popped up that offer folks those those products. And so what I'm hearing and which is what I think everyone right in the chat room should be hearing is, you can't just go to your local hamper, or THC shop and get CBD oil and put it on your dog's food. This is not what you should do. Because you may end up with, like massive overdose, you may end up with under debt, like you don't know what you get.

27:19

And, you know, the, what does the person at the local shop know about dosing a dog? Right? They're, they're usually talking about people,

27:26

because I've had them tried to tell me that right? They don't know who I am. And I go in just to see what's up, right, like, just up, up up in this little town. Well, not up but down like little south of us. There's little town has a couple of shops that popped up. So I just went in to see what was what, last year. And they they actually have products in there that are they have a sign on and that say for pets? Yeah. And then they started, you know, I mean, they don't have any idea who I'm just random person that comes in their shop has started telling me all about how, Oh, do you have a dog that is anxious? Do you have a dog that has separation anxiety? And, you know, you give them this? And if it doesn't work, give them two of them? And

28:11

it doesn't work? Give them more? No,

28:13

this is what they told me. You know, and, you know, I asked questions. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. But I asked him questions like, you know, will will? What is it that I'm giving them? What else is in there? And what's the dose? And, you know, it was it was, you know, kind of ambiguous and so, so I think that's where you have to trust your veterinarian. And as we always say, if you don't trust your veterinarian, get a new veterinarian. And, and just be cognizant of that, because there is data getting out that you're talking about, like you've done these studies and stuff. So there is data, right, right.

28:49

I mean, right now, I mean, last time we talked, a veterinarian couldn't even look up a dose right now veterinarian can go into their plums formulary, which we all use right Bible dosing, and you can type in CBD or cannabidiol. And it will basically give you the form of the formulary says for osteoarthritis and seizures, here's what we think you should be using. So it's like if it's in our Bible now, right? So that that was a big that was a huge leap forward for the veterinarian because now they don't have to remember a dose or they don't have to worry about it. They can, they can either like you know, carry a product like ours, and it's all on the bag form. But now it's like going to your formulary. And you can actually recommend a dose without being sort of blindsided and when you go to those stores, they started such a low dose, you're never going to see an effect. So it's like start with a real dose and we know it's safe. There's now Colorado state's done some great safety stuff now on on the escalating dose in both dogs and cats and, and the group out of Mars did a really nice job of doing the long term so If someone studies what happens to a dog or a cat, on a four Meg per cake dose every day, and it's very safe that those doses, so think we can have the peace of mind as vets that it's, it's not the black box of I don't know what's going to happen if that dog stays on it for the next year. But we didn't get a good idea.

30:17

I think that's great, but maybe I'm not understanding. So that's one end. So we know what dose to give. But the other end is we need to get the right product that actually has that amount in the product. Right? It's regulated, it's labeled. It's not Yeah, that's the Dutch origin point. A couple of things about that visit one, nobody believes they didn't know who you were, because I know you went in there with all of your doctor Jinja vet swag. Oh, no, nobody believes that you went out there not advertising. And too. Did you call that field research? Is that what you were doing?

30:44

I did. Yeah, absolutely. That is

30:48

a lot of those products in those stores, that the bag can say it has x, whatever, whatever's in there, but it's not necessarily regulated to whatever the producer wanted to put on that label. Is that correct? Or am I misunderstanding that? Yeah,

31:01

no, I think you're right, is that the producer can put whatever is on the label and say that it has, you know, per per mil, it has, it's got 15 milligrams per mil, when you test it, there's usually on average, an expected five to 10% variation just based on the fact that you know, what you analyze should be pretty close some of them. I mean, that was the scary part is back in 2018. When we took a bunch of products off the shelf. A lot of them were pretty good, but 42% of those were mislabeled, and some almost half are mislabeled, misrepresented, right? Yeah. Well, that's the problem is that, you know, you got to find a product that's consistent. And let's face it, a lot of these companies, they just go out and purchase like, bulk. CBD and other cannabinoids tell you, it's the perfect blend, right? And then they put it in a bottle and try and sell it to sell it. And then I well, then their supplier, their supplier goes dry, and says, Sorry, we can't get it to us now the products off the shelf. And if it's working for your dog, yeah, right. And what do you have that product? Honestly, good point. I

32:09

never thought about that. Right? So you

32:11

want someone who has that full control from the farm to table right. So we're going back to the farmers market, where that farm to table thing is a great thing for a company to have is, you know, do they have the ability to make sure that every single quarter, they're given you the same exact product because they can control what's happening at that front end at the farm. That's one of the nicer things about LFS is that we got a year stock in case the apocalypse comes right. So the apocalypse comes, there's a year of stock sitting in a freezer, so that, you know, hey, guess what? Something happens to the supply chain and you know, tornado goes through the hemp fields or whatever. There's there's more available, right? And so that that whole issue is is a big problem now, because the cannabinoid industry is kind of going bust. Right? It used to be, yeah, there, I mean, in the Human Rights arena, because the FDA has come down and said things like, you know, hey, we're going to start to regulate this because it's a special plant, which it is, right. And so the human supplement industry is kind of really taken a turn for the worse. And hemp, CBD farmers are stopped have stopped making it because it's not a lucrative crop

33:29

too much harder. They probably don't want the government to come in there and tell them how to do it and then shut out.

33:34

Yeah, well, it's gonna cost more it's gonna cost more to make it right. So it once it's regulated, because I think that's a great point, like we live a farmers market. However, you're like your farmer who's growing like a little plot of hemp in their backyard, and then going to the farmers market once a month. And you know, selling what they have. They're not sending that to a commercial and independent commercial lab to analyze exactly what the constituent pieces are, that's in that little, you know, craft bag that they're selling it to you. And so because that's an added expense. And so I think that's the point of it is that it it once you kind of seek to standardize that and make people really prove that what's on the label is what's in the bag, that you have a shift in the market. Not not necessarily a bad one. Like I'm you know, I don't really care for regulations of any kind. But I would like to be able to trust within intubated medicine,

34:33

you probably want that right. Yeah. Yeah. So

34:37

and so I think that that's the the piece of it. And we always think well, we want to be sure that what we want to be in the bags in the bag, we rarely think but but also I want to be sure that there's nothing bad in the bag that I'm not looking for so so all of that and that's why I guess that's what you're saying. We've only bet is that because you have control of the farm, so I'm gonna guess you guys are fully vertically integrated as they say yes, right. For the process, so you've got it going in the ground coming out of the ground going into the bag and and having that testing. So, Mike, you glossed over another big piece there, Dr. Joe, you're glossing over these big pieces that are important to me as a veterinarian, which is, is there data that says that this is safe to give on a daily basis? So I'm thinking of these behavior issue dogs, I'm thinking of the the seizure pets. You know, I don't want to give fina bar if I don't have to, because it has some real side effects that are undesirable. But if it's something that can be controlled, with a daily CBD dose, from a hemp derived product, can I give it every day long term? Yeah,

35:47

yeah, I mean, I think that's what's nice since since we last met, is that we now have really like, four studies out that showing long term three 612 month type of treatment, there's nothing negative that happens. There's no you know, there's no strange behavioral stuff happening. There's no, you know, we'll just say side effects to the liver or kidney and things like that. So, so do

36:12

you recommend? So you know, like, if I put a pet on fina BB or potassium bromide, or any of these sort of long term, integer meds, I'm monitoring, like you said, liver, kidney, all the things? Yeah, every six months, or 12 months with bloodwork, et cetera, which for a lot of, you know, pet owners becomes prohibitively expensive. But they need their pet to stay on the on the meds, obviously. So is it something that are you still recommending that? Is that kind of what I do?

36:49

You know, I mean, since we, since we met last time, there are now studies particularly in the seizure world, because the seizure medications can be have a lot of side effects. Oh, they're terrible. Yeah. Yeah. So now there's, there's a lot of there's a lot of work that's been done looking at things like the phenol BB, which is what is one of the first lines of defense, right? You put them off in a bar, do the seizures diminish a little bit? Okay, I'm gonna keep them on it, but it's not great for the liver. And there's,

37:16

there's subdued like that basically sedates the dog a lot of times, so yeah, it's a happy balance, right?

37:23

For sure. And there's plenty of work on that that molecule, right, the phenol bar. And you know, that's what all the neurologists were very worried about, because people say if you give CBD it's going to alter those levels in the blood. And you don't want to give CBD because we don't know enough about how it alters all these other medications that we use as neurologists. And now the data is coming out that at the doses that are recommended, which are around, you know, two milligrams per kilogram twice a day, that and even up to like 10 milligrams, they didn't affect the phenol BB levels in the bloodstream. It didn't affect the SMI levels in the bloodstream, or the KBR the bromide level. So it didn't affect that so you can give it concurrently and not worry about the other anti seizure meds, you can keep Monnet put the CBD on top, and see how that helps with the seizures. And you know, it's not a panacea. All the anti seizure medications only have maybe a 30 or 40% response rate, right? Same thing with CBD, we're only going to see 40% of those dogs respond favorably. So it's not going to be the panacea for every seizure dog, but it's something that can definitely be used after you get the phenol BB on top and you say, it's not really working great, but the CBD it can work better. Right? And you know, the same thing goes is that you know, a lot of people were saying that, you know, these doses are going to affect other drugs such as chemo chemotherapy, right, because a lot of people like to try it during chemotherapy. We just finished a study that should be published soon showing that when you give chemo therapies like doxorubicin

39:05

that's a bad one. bad one.

39:07

It's a big bad one. We don't want to alter those levels and we put them on pretty high doses, five milligrams per keg twice a day. So 10 milligrams total a day of CBD did not affect doxorubicin pharmacokinetics. So it seems to be safe. So that's where every all the specialist vets were like, I just want it to be safe. I don't want it to hinder. I don't want it to hinder the chemotherapy, and it doesn't look like it does. And even even with vincristine, it may be synergistic, right, be helpful. So

39:37

so you can give a lower dose potentially the vincristine in combination with that. Wow.

39:43

So I mean, that's been shown in a cell culture dish with cells that were laying on lymphoma cells. It's yeah, that they kind of work together for some reason in that specific cancer. So we're learning a lot. I mean, you know, five, four years out from our first thing,

39:59

those studies are done. Humans, are those studies done in animals or what? Yeah, those

40:02

were done in dogs who are on chemotherapy.

40:05

That that's okay, so it sounds like, it kind of sounds like, CBD is the fun kid at the party who gets along with everybody. Cuz, you know, like, it's not impacting the therapeutic levels or the, you know, the blood levels of any of those chronic meds that we might give for, you know, the clinical diseases that CBD may help with, right, the seizures and the cancer. This whole thing about can help with itching blows my mind. I'm, like, I I'm very excited about the potential there. And so, I mean, that, that this could be something that alters one of the most common things we see every day that we're just retreating all the time. Yeah,

40:52

I mean it from from, you know, from the company's perspective, it's like, you know, you get the dog who just has that seasonal itch right, and they're complaining the dogs itching much and it's not a horrible, horrible a TOPIK you know, seems as if, like, everybody reaches says, go take Desertec reserve protection, take the edge off, the Benadryl take should take the edge off, I think elevate would take the edge off just as well. Right. And so, you know, it's like, you can give that and then if your dog has osteoarthritis, and an itchy dog, Well, God now you got a two for one special right?

41:29

Now feel even better. Right? Exactly.

41:31

And it's very funny in our DERM study, that was one of the side effects that they led listed. The side effects was the dogs mobility got better. The owners didn't even really know the dog had arthritis, because they were so worried about the itch. That's right. So well,

41:47

and sometimes dogs are so itchy that they can't do they can't play they can't like they run to get the ball. So that's what I always ask voters. Like, if I throw the ball, will they have to stop on the way to itch? Right? They get to the ball or before they get back with the ball? Because that's what happens. And if owners are like, Yeah, you know what, I can't even see my dog go and run and get the ball without stopping it. Like now we have a problem. Okay, yeah. So, so not only can they just go to the ball without having to stop it, it's on the way, they might go faster to the ball, if they're right on the ellevet. Yep,

42:24

yeah, I get there a little quicker and back a little quicker. But yes. It's it's, you know, it's for us. It was like, back in the day, we were saying it's not the panacea. You know, Hebrews like saying, Oh, maybe it can cure cancer, it doesn't cure cancer, right. But we are finding sort of some of these multi benefit things. And it's not it's not it's not like we were hugely ingenious about this. There were rumblings in the human community that it might do these things. So we just put that to the test for dogs and found some real benefits. So

42:59

yeah, and I think that's why I enjoy having you come into the chat room and share with us because you don't tell us what what you think it's gonna do. You you share with us? Yeah, listen, friends, we collected the data, we thought it might, and we collected the data. And now we know it does or it doesn't. Right. And,

43:20

and I'm happy to share that. We've also done work now on post surgical pain, right, which is very different from longtime arthritic pain, and post surgical pain doesn't help that much. So, yeah, we're happy to tell people that after the spay CBD isn't going to do much for that post surgical pain or that that knee surgery you just had, I mean, we published a negative paper after tplo did not help very much for the pain. But we did see there are fewer dogs on Trazodone to keep them sedated. Right. So it's once it's the anxiety piece again, right, right. So what are the interesting things right, it's helpful, but it's not helpful for the post surgical pain, you may be able to use it, lower dose of Trazodone or maybe use this along, along with something that's going to help the dog recover and not act like a nut job in your house and screw up the surgery. Right.

44:17

Absolutely. Absolutely. All right, Jake. Jason, do you do you have any other burning questions?

44:25

As far as I've been? I've been a CBD fan, you know, ever since the baboon and I think it's great. I think it's I mean, I think it's that was such a lifesaver for me just anecdotally it was it was such a okay also for the but really for me because it's really difficult to deal with to watch the watch this guy go through this and then anyways, so it's great. I love to talk about it. I think the the future is bright, and getting brighter as much as as much as we really don't like regulation. Like that's a bad word. However, in this situation probably is important. Because people realize that it's it. Hey, I'm gonna try it for everything and Everyone's out to make a buck and they're gonna do stuff, you know, not not great and cause some problems. So I think once we get past this regulation portion, I think it's going to explode even even more and who knows what it's going to help and solve, especially independently? I think it's fantastic. Yep.

45:14

No, I think there plenty of directions to go and scary to say there's more cannabinoids to study. Right, this. Exactly.

45:22

So,

45:24

so many more to study. Yeah.

45:26

I mean, there's, there's a, there's an interesting study that came out in cats with gingival stomatitis. Right, saying that those cats you know, gained weight and that's always a problem. When cats have gingivitis, dermatitis, they just don't eat very well, they lose weight, people get upset, you know, didn't care their gingival stomatitis. But they ate better, right? So it's these little nuance things where we're going to find little niches where CBD can fit into that treatment regimen. So yeah, it's an exciting time. And then there's, there's things like CBG, which I won't even get into, but just to prime you for maybe another podcast and for years, we'll we'll be talking about some of these other cannabinoids, and then how they made other than four years. Four years, it's

46:13

gonna take off, you guys are gonna solve the world's problems with this stuff. Right? Right, right. So

46:16

there's just so much to study. And there's so many different cannabinoids that this is this is what we'll be talking until, until they put us in the ground. So yeah,

46:26

you wouldn't spread your talent so thin and do something all over the place. If you were just focused on CBD. Imagine how far we could get this is. This is really your fault, actually. All right. Yeah. It's not a panacea. It's

46:37

no, no, not a panacea. But we're going to have different different cannabinoids for different indications at one day and just be able to kind of pick and choose kind of like we do the pet foods off the shelf. I'm a nutritionist. It's like I got the letter. I got Yeah, I got the G's. The D is the C's, you know, we're gonna say here's the one Monday hits. Yeah.

46:56

Well, I will tell you that the first the very first time I met you years ago, and you said, we were just starting getting started with hemp and CBD. And when you told us how many terpenes there were alone, in, you know, the plant. It was it was like, it was at 250 or 400. Right?

47:19

There's that, oh, there's over 400 different molecules and in the hemp plant. And

47:24

we've studied effectively, like halfway studied one and four that anyone was studying that anyone had looked at? I thought, yeah, okay. He might have to come back. Yeah.

47:40

Yeah, I'll be honest, we've, we've characterized the plant, and we found a new cannabinoid and the elephant plant, the one that we use. So everybody's excited, right? I found a new cannabinoid that has not been characterized, and they're like, this is really interesting. So, you know, there's just so much we still don't know and need to learn. And, yeah,

48:00

yeah, but I love that we have the two rails, right? Like, we're, you're staying in the lane of it's therapeutic. And then the other rail is it's safe. Right, so so we won't hurt anything. But we know for a fact we can help some things, right? We're not even guessing we know for a fact. That's why you have the PK study. That's why we have a dose, you're talking about a specific dose by body weight, not just yet give them some. I like that. I know the chatterboxes like that. We want to know that we're doing something concrete for our pet, we want to know that we're not hurting them because it is safe. We can trust what's in there. And so, yeah, I mean, that those are the two big points of it for us. And so Dr. Joe is there, if there was one thing that you wanted veterinarians to know, and one thing that you wanted pet owners to know about hemp and the CBD world? What might those two things be for each policy?

49:00

I think for the veterinarian, I think it's, it's a lot of vets in there, you can surveys that most vets don't feel comfortable talking about and don't feel comfortable using it. It's like, it's time to get comfortable. And to put it in the toolbox. It may not be something you prescribe every day. But you'll have that really old crunchy dog who's got a little bit of just not with it, owners, or like he just doesn't interact with us. And it's like, that's one of the things we've seen as you put them on this and all of a sudden the dog just is brighter, right? And so the veterinarian should really start to put it in the toolbox and start playing with whatever it is they're playing with. It's the hammer or screwdriver to you, whatever it is. And then I think for the owners, it's all I think it's about the safety is a safe to give and, you know, study after study has shown it's safe. There's only one enzyme that tends to go up that's associated with just metabolism called out FOSS. That's a pretty benign enzyme and a very, very well we'll just say The old sage and wise clinician who's written a textbook that we've all read. Yeah. Man from California. And he's, he's been on our advisory board and he just keeps going. Why do you keep talking about that enzyme? No one cares, right? It's the most useless enzyme on a chemistry panel. So,

50:19

but also it goes back down, like when you removed it, yeah, it goes up

50:23

and down. And then it goes up and down with a lot of different lot of different things as of right. So yeah, so it's like it's safe for the owners. Understand that you should talk to your vet about the dosing, don't talk to somebody at the local, you know, my CBD, store, whatever, you know, talk to your vet, because your vet is now slowly becoming more and more educated, and you'll find vets that will talk to you about it now. Yeah.

50:44

And I think I think that's the wonderful thing is that because also, in fairness, folks, I see Dr. Joe doing his part for getting the word out, because I see him at the biggest conferences. He's on the lecture slate. And he's, he's talking about data surrounding this. And not talking about his perceptions or how he feels that it looks but actual data to know that we're actually having an impact. And I think that's wonderful. And, and if you want more information, don't drive off the road. If you're listening in your cars, we know many of you do. There going to be links in the show notes to a lot of the things that he's referenced so that you can find it there. And folks, so I would say go talk to your veterinarian and ask them what they know about CBD, check out the ellevet website. They also have a whole lot of educational stuff there. For owners and for veterinarians alike.

51:40

And I'll be honest with you now, Ella vet has ellevet academy.com, where you can go get CPE as a veterinarian, and anybody can get on and learn just just learning. It's not it's not a branded, it's just about cannabinoids, so

51:55

yeah. And no one should be afraid of learning. Yes. At all. All right, so yeah, so I'll put a link to that as well for folks to check out. Yeah, so don't sit at home and wonder if it can help your pet. Talk to your veterinarian, talk to your veterinarian. Alright, so thank you so much for joining us again, Dr. Joe walk Schlag at Cornell and at Le vet and talking all about CBD and hemp for your pet. I think that's all I have Jason. I'm good. Okay, there we were. There we have it. I'm Dr. Jenn the vet. And I'm Dr. Jason and we'll catch you all the next episode. The professional Animal Care certification council or PAP brings independent testing and certification to the pet care services industry is your dog's daycare or boarding kennel or a groomer man by pack certified professionals don't know if you don't know you got to ask look for the pack emblem at your facility to make sure that your pets receiving the highest level of professional pet care because we all know it's safer and a pack your pack CE code for this episode is cc 220088.

53:15

This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses.