Pet poisons top 10

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This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses.

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Hi, and welcome to chats with the Chatfields! This is a podcast expand your idea of what impacts veterinarians, pet owners, and basically all animal lovers in the galaxy as humans. We are your hosts I'm Dr. Jen the vet. And I'm Dr. Jason. And if you have not yet subscribed to our show, why not? Just go to Chatfieldshow.com And subscribe today. And if you want to reach us and you've got a message full of love and positivity, you can reach me at Jen@Chatfieldshow.com

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and for everything else you can reach me at Jason@Chatfieldshow.com

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All right. In the chat room today we have like a super smarty pants, an expert coming in to talk all about poison

01:00

that's why it's all quiet? poison is awesome, right? It's actually one of the most interesting things, but that was like pretty anticlimactic, because it's a little scary to say the word poison.

01:09

It is scary. It is scary. Also, we're recording this around Halloween time. So I was trying to throw in a little element, you know, of spooky

01:16

Halloween, Halloween situation. Yeah.

01:19

The spook. Yeah. Anyway. All right. Well, let's bring her right in. So we are very privileged to host in the chat room today. Dr. Renee Schmid. She is a manager of veterinary medicine and professional services for the pet poison helpline. And she's also a senior veterinary toxicologist for the pet poison helpline and safety call International. 

01:47

what was that? Yeah.

01:49

Safety call International. So we're gonna ask her what that is exactly. Let me tell you. So Dr. Schmid has been with the pet poison helpline and safety call international since 2013. So she's not new with this. She knows what's happening. She went to undergrad and went to vet school at Kansas State University. And she's not only worked in toxicology, but also as a small animal general practitioner, so she knows how to walk the walk in the regular shoes. Right? We like it! That's great. Are we gonna let her talk but we're just gonna talk about her. We're gonna talk about her. No, that's all I have. Dr. Schmid! Welcome into the chat room.

02:27

Hi. Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

02:30

Yeah. Well, so we're really excited. I hope you're prepared.

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We'll find out.

02:39

Oh, my goodness, she's definitely sure you're prepared.

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It's just a guess. So yeah.

02:44

Yes. I mean, looking at her credentials that you have, really we are privileged that you're joining us to talk all about? 

03:00

No problem. So tell us a little bit about what drew you to working with toxicology and poison.

03:12

You know, I actually fell into it. To be honest, when I was in veterinary school, I had no intentions of going into toxicology, I had no thought that a practicing veterinarian would go into toxicology, I thought it was somebody who went and got a PhD, and did additional schooling in the university. And so I really kind of fell into it. So as my kind of seasons in professional life have changed, we move to a rural area, and I started looking for something I could do remotely. And I was kind of home raising babies. And suddenly, I didn't want to commute a lot for Yeah, and so I happen to know, a CEO of a pharmaceutical company, and I thought, well, maybe pharmacovigilance is my thing. So I called them and they said, No, you know what we actually use safety call international for pharmacovigilance work. And so that sent me to our parent company, which is safety call International. And that is an adverse event reporting, basically human and animal poison control for all those products that have the 800 numbers on the back if ingested this call this 800 number. And we represent a lot of those companies. And so I called and reached out and they said, Well, no actually don't have anything for pharmacovigilance. But we are looking for someone on our pet poison helpline site. Wow. And they sent me the job description and what it entailed. And I thought, This is it. This is the job for me. And so that's where Yeah, and so that's where I kind of fell. They truly fell into it. And I really love toxicology. It was something that I didn't Know that I liked and working here and my experience with as you said, general practice, practice is also an emergency work did anesthesia for a few years. So it all really combined it together but allowed me to combine all my experiences together. And it's just been a great fit ever since.

05:20

Yeah, that's fantastic. Wow,

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you're were working from home before it was cool.

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Working from home before it was cool. I've been with as you mentioned, I've been with pet poison helpline for over nine years, I've always worked as a remote employee. I went in, we definitely have an office and I went in there for training. But we've been working from home ever since. And wow. It's not for everyone if you're an extroverted person, and you really like that human daily human human interaction, and you definitely get that here, but it's not face to face. And so, you know, some people don't thrive as well with that. But yeah, my lifestyle works really well for it. Yeah,

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I think that's fabulous. That's one of those things that we talk about all the time on the show is that veterinarians, there's a broad array of opportunities and circumstances that are available for you for employment as a veterinarian just because of the significant kind of comparative training that we get. So yeah, so that's wonderful. All right. So I do we what we want to, we want to get to for all of our chatterboxes out there listening, we want to get to things like you know, what happens when you call the pet poison helpline or the most common toxins that you see, that sort of thing, but everyone's gonna have to hang with us till after the break. Right. So we're gonna pay some bills. But when we come back, we're gonna have some tips for pet owners all about how to keep your pet safe from poison, and what to do if you find or think that they got some. So hang with us. We'll be right back. Hi! It's Dr. Jen the vet, and I'm here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Keith Latson. He's got an incredibly interesting story all about full bucket health,

07:21

my college roommate and vet school housemate, Dr. Rob Franklin and I were collaborating on some cases, both of us were struggling with diarrhea in some of our patients, whether it was after a procedure or after after an illness. So we created a formulation but we didn't want to just create a formulation. We also wanted to create a movement and animal health, for being able to help animals in need through the use of bar products that we developed that really has resulted in our one for one giving program, which we're really proud of, as much as we are our formulations for dogs, horses and cats.

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08:11

I wonder if we're talking about poisons and toxicology in vet school V. What's your view?

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V's view from vet school brought to you by the AVMA trust veterinarian inspired coverage protecting you through it all. Oh, hi. Welcome.

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Welcome to V's view from vet school. I'm v and this is my view. Human behavior. Vet school and vet students may indeed provide one of the best opportunities for any mental health or behavioral therapy professional to observe human behavior. For example, in order to observe mob-like behavior, you can simply enter an area where vet students are known to congregate and put a puppy or a kitten out in a bag and then observe the stampede of the mob to surround the creature. Oh, it's so cute. Oh my god, I have to pet it. The scene is not unlike that of the seagulls from the movie Madagascar. If you're not familiar, mine, mine, or Nemo, mine, mine. Another example reflects a bit more of a Lord of the Flies type of situation. Many of you may be too young to know what book I'm referring to. But I digress. Let's say that there's a field trip to a dairy and 10 cows to be palpated with 25 students on the trip. I'm not great at math, but that doesn't really add up. You will be surprised at how dirty vet students will fight for the opportunity to become so incredibly familiar with a cow. Naturally, I have witnessed many different types of behavior. During my time in vet school thus far, but perhaps the most common is compassion and love, love for the animals that we are privileged to encounter here at the university. Compassion for the owners we meet, and an overall joy and excitement about the profession we're about to become part of. And maybe just a tiny hint of fear. But mostly joy. Hopefully that is the feeling and behavior you most often see demonstrated by your pet's veterinarian. So for now, I'm v. And this is my view. But I have to get back to studying talk later.

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V's view from vet school, brought to you by the AVMA trust, veterinarian inspired coverage protecting you through it all.

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Okay, and we're back in the chat room. Thanks so much V for your view. We love it. And by the way, if you have any questions about vet school, feel free to email us. V would love to enlighten everyone as her journey continues through second year.

11:17

I have a question. I started, I'm ready. You use this word twice. I don't know what it is. I'm not sure I can pronounce it. But it's a great sounding Well, I'm gonna use it today. So I can sound smart like you guys. farmaco. Diligence, no farmaco. What is it? What was the word

11:35

Pharmacovigilance. Yeah.

11:40

I appreciate I was not close, not at all.

11:42

big fancy word for just basically regulatory reporting. So medications, pharmaceuticals are regulated by the FDA. Different pesticides, insecticide products, and different chemicals can be regulated by the EPA and different different organizations in the government. And so they have to be any adverse events, meaning anything that out of the normal that happened to that particular animal or human has to be reported. And so we will help do that reporting. We'll take that information and then help with the documentation and send that in so that those companies meet those regulatory requirements.

12:23

Right. That's a lot packed into that word. And

12:27

I know that sounds very fancy! Three letter agencies,

12:31

yes. All kinds of stuff.

12:34

Yeah. It also sounds pretty critical to the consumer at the end of the line there, right? Yeah, for sure.

12:42

So when, you know, when pharmaceuticals, they get approved and out on the market, and then those they continue to be monitored, they're monitored throughout their life in the market. And so it's something that allows them to pick up maybe there was some adverse event, maybe there was some symptom that developed that isn't good or isn't wanted, that really didn't show up in the in the clinical trials or in the studies beforehand. And so that's how that's how these companies can continue to make sure that their products are safe, that they're effective, and that they can make changes as necessary. stain on

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watch. Gotta watch all those vigilant on those pharmaco situation.

13:24

That's right, right, right.

13:25

I think that's fancy. Okay. So now that we've had vocabulary lesson for the day, for the year, the month or the year, I mean, there's a lot of syllables. So I want to talk about poison! So we recently actually met you in person, because you were giving lectures at the IBPSAs annual conference. And, you know, that's for all folks, Pet Pet Care professionals. So I guess, what is pet poison helpline? The calls that you get, right, because someone calls you is that's how it works. Right? Correct. Okay. Is it pet owners that are calling you? Is it veterinarians? Is it boarding kennel professionals? Like who is it therefore, who can access it?

14:11

Yeah, the answer is yes, it's, anyone can call it. So I would say that the most the most common are pet owners. Those are certainly the most common calls that we get. But we also get calls from veterinary clinics, we get calls from boarding facilities, pet sitters, daycare operators, you know, animals are so good at getting into things that they shouldn't anywhere, anytime, anyplace so we take calls from anyone with regards to either their pet or their patients.

14:43

And the flip side of that is humans are really good at leaving stuff out that they shouldn't Excellent. It takes two to play that game.

14:55

Yeah, you are right. Especially the

14:57

little short humans, right. They they're the best They're really good at leaving stuff out. So,

15:02

yes, got it. I mean, it's like she's seen cosette in action, right with her paws to get anything open. And actually, you have seen cosette and actually,

15:11

oh, I have you got it? Because you've met her at the conference. I did. She's a cutie.

15:17

Yes, we love her. So, alright, so let's get to it here. What I'm going to ask you like some superlatives. Okay, so what is the scariest? I guess poison call that you like you? Like maybe you're like, Oh, God, I hope no one calls with this. Because it's either so deadly, or there's nothing you can do about it? Or there's a lot of paperwork involved. Yeah, either one like what's and then you know, and kind of why. So do you have one of those? That's like your scariest are they all kind of the same?

15:52

You know, the one that pops in my head is probably because I just had a call on it yesterday is five FU, which is a topical chemotherapeutic agent. So for skin cancers, it has a really narrow margin of safety in dogs and cats. So, that's the five flurourocil?

16:13

Yeah, you got it, you got it. And it has such a narrow margin of safety, which means such a small amount can be deadly to these guys. And a lot of times it's come it can be there from the the human and the House who's taking the medication, applied it and then the animal maybe rubbed up against it, and then licked it off of themselves. Or maybe they licked the area off of the owner. Or maybe the owner just unknowingly with good intentions sees a sore on their pets, and they apply it in hopes of it treating their animal. And then they having an issue with that. Or they just leave the tube out in the container out the dog gets it and ingest that. So that's probably the scariest one because we can see some really significant neurologic signs. So seizures, body tremors, they can also have low blood cell counts, they can have low white blood cell counts. These can be fatal to these guys in about 24 hours in a lot of cases. And even with aggressive care,

17:17

he's that just looking like like so would you describe the licking? Like if I put it on my arm or something because I'm treating a spot my prescription like I'm supposed to? And my like cozy that likes to taste everything comes up and licks my arm. That amount is that like, I guess toxic? But I mean? Yeah, like how?

17:37

Yeah, depending on the size of the dog, depending on the size of the dog and the amount it's put onto that spot. Wow, the call we had yesterday was somebody who had applied it about six hours before the dog licked the area. So the amount they could have gotten into would have been really low. And we didn't have a concern that it was going to be fatal to them. Okay, but if they had just applied it, if there was a you know, there was that film that was on there kind of at cakey layer and the dog immediately licks it off, and it's a small dog for sure it can be a problem. If it's a lab a Great Dane, you know, the really large dogs, then they usually have to maybe get into the tube to get a to get a few more even just a couple of like Eminem sighs worse can be fatal to them. Wow. And what we always say in Toxicology is the dose makes the poison. So if you have a small if you have a tiny dog, small amounts can be really problematic. And if you have a larger dog, they usually have to get into a little bit more.

18:36

I was just gonna say so that's really a dose dependent thing. Yes. You know,

18:41

yes, most things, almost everything is when it comes to toxicology.

18:46

Oh, interesting.

18:47

I would have thought you were gonna say something. You know, I just I just didn't think about human medicine being being ideal there was at a chocolate or something you know, and a free I was thinking in a freezer, chemical, not necessarily a human medicine, I guess. I guess when you start talking about that kind of stuff. It really is just a chemical that's designed to kill things, you know, indiscriminately. So yeah.

19:12

Good to enter. Freeze is a bad one. That's also a that's also a bad one. In this time of year, our number of calls will certainly increase or decrease.

19:21

I'm glad you guys brought up antifreeze. I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about antifreeze for a minute. I have a question for you. I'm, I'm an avid watcher of The Walking Dead. Okay, so if anyone wants to do so at some point,

19:32

oh my god, I'm so sorry.

19:35

No, I laughed at it. And this is very it pertains to this. This this. This podcast. Okay, so So somebody poisoned a bunch of humans great. She poisoned them with antifreeze. Okay, there's like a whole episode whatever. Spoiler alert for those of you guys who haven't watched it, but I don't think on the last one to watch it. They cure the antifreeze toxicity to antifreeze by drinking beer.

19:58

Yay. Everclear Have you ever clear it was right? It was just beer.

20:05

Oh, what do you say? Dr. Schmidt?

20:07

I don't know. I don't disparage walking dead too much.

20:10

If so, I mean, I would hate to, you know, say anything was wrong with that. So, the treatment, one of the treatments for Anna freezes ethanol, which is alcohol. So beer certainly has alcohol in it. Probably not a high enough concentration drink. Drink enough to stay, you know, to, to not to be able to have Yeah, and so in animals, if we're, if we're using it in veterinary medicine, we are using Everclear like Dr. Jen said, because it's a higher it's a more you know, more potent, more concentrated alcohol. And Anna freeze the the ingredients, and Anna freezes ethylene glycol, which is a form of alcohol. So we use that drinking alcohol to compete with the antifreeze. And so we kind of give these guys alcohol poisoning, so to speak, we got to get them a little bit drunk in order to save their life from Ghana free

21:16

saving. So we'll give it a b minus. All right. I won't go into the fact that was like two days later, and bla bla bla bla.

21:24

Yeah. Man, they're toast. By that time. It

21:28

was interesting. Yeah. All right. Very good.

21:31

I mean, I'm afraid to enter freeze one of my like, biggest fears because we're going to the emergency clinic, I had some come in and they hadn't just ingested it had been a while. And so it had already had mineralized the kidneys. And there, as far as I could tell, there wasn't much I could could do at that point. So that gets me to a kind of another question people ask routinely, which is, is it an emergency? Is it not? How much time do I have? And I'm sure it depends on the poison. So then, with the most common toxicities, I guess, that you get calls about? And I'd want to know which ones those are like, what are the most common ones you get toxicities about? Yeah, so

22:11

what's kind of fun is every year we put together a top 10 for the year prior. So for 2022, we went through and looked at what are our top calls for 2021. It doesn't necessarily mean they're the most toxic, it just seems are the ones that are getting the most exposure. So chocolate by far takes the cake every year. I'm not sure we've had a year where it hasn't been the number one call and you think about it.

22:39

I love your language. I love your around chocolate. People love

22:44

it. Yeah, you got it. And people aren't necessarily you know, they maybe they're putting their medications up high, but they're not really thinking about the chocolate. And the kids like you said our little humans, the little ones they've got candy stored all around and hiding it in the places and that's get to

23:00

most people people know now it's been a lot of messaging out there for many many years. A chocolate Yeah. is chocolate. Basically the message is chocolate would kill your dog. Right? Even though it's one little bite. Yeah, I got a call. So you could probably gonna get a lot of calls that aren't Yeah, we do. Like I know you're fine.

23:16

So yeah, right. Yeah, you got it. Our number two this year was grapes and raisins. So grapes and raisins are they can cause kidney failure in dogs and potentially cats. We don't think it's as big of an issue but they really haven't been able to disprove it. So we still kind of treat them cautiously. But dogs and cats for sure. Xylitol, Xylitol is number three and xylitol. I always I always say it starts with an x y l so you're not looking for a word with the letter Z. Yeah. And that's a sugar alcohol for all those sugar free foods and gums and candies. But it also has different properties that have nothing to do with sweetness. So it can be in deodorant, skin gels, lotions, all sorts of different kinds of

24:00

I'm interrupt you again, those I only have two questions per episode write down two things. All I do, those are my two things. raisin bread. Question mark. Is that a real real deal? And yeah, the tall and then we can we'll probably get off subject. We're talking about the paws off law or whatever. Because it was it was kind of a deal a couple years ago, right? They wanted to really talk about labeling of human stuff. But for the Yes, right. They want to label humans stuff that has dots off. So people know Oh, my gosh, this, this this Jordan has actually has some toxic stuff, stuff in it or whatever. So

24:30

yeah, and you know that it's been a while since I've looked at it, but I think that law was talking about labeling foods only God and that's where it kind of can get into to what can become become problematic because it's in things that we did that people want to have sweetened. So gummy vitamins, chewable liquid medications, a lot of those things that have kind of a really high Xylitol content in it that I think that I don't think they're included in that in that proposed law or that proposed legislation, and then like you said like that, you know, the other things like the deodorants and things like that I don't think they're included in there. So it's it's one of those where us as toxicologists, we're a little bit concerned that if people don't see that label, they're not going to look they're gonna make an assumption that it's safe. Again, I think it's limited to foods only, but it's been a while since I've looked at it, I thought,

25:27

interesting situation, because most people aren't going to think, Oh, you don't dog you ate my deodorant harsh serves you, right, they're not gonna think there's actually something toxic in it. So

25:36

but that's part of the issue, right? Like the absence of a label for safety, or the absence of a label for toxicity doesn't mean it's not toxic. Because if you do everything, I mean, if you, you know, a truckload of it, it's, it's whatever it is, it's going to be toxic in some way.

25:54

Yeah, for sure. And then where do we stop? You know, like I just said, grapes and raisins? Where do we label grapes and raisins, because that feel it can be just as fatal because we'll fatal kidney failure. And I definitely want the consumers to be aware of xylitol, and that certainly is not the issue. It's just where do we stop with that? Because there's a lot of human products and foods that are great for humans, but bad for pets. And so where do we end? Can we come up with that? And

26:23

that's the good news about coming on this fantastic podcast, we're gonna really get the message out to hundreds of millions of listeners. Now they're gonna know it's not just chocolate. And it's not right. It could be raisin raisin bread sourdough. So we're doing our part, getting the messaging out.

26:39

But that's part of the question I have, too. Is that great. So it says grapes and raisins? A, what self respecting cat is eating grapes or raisins? That's what I like to know. And secondly, it has to be a Persian or a Himalayan it has to be and then, but secondly, that's not uniformly true, right? Like, isn't that kind of like some, some dogs? For some dogs eating grapes and raisins is toxic. But for other dogs, they can eat grapes and raisins to their heart's delight, right? It doesn't cause a problem. Is that true?

27:13

Yeah, you ask a really good question. So there is some what we call just individual variability. So dog to dog animal to animal, how much can they tolerate, versus the other one, we really feel that probably every dog can tolerate at least one grape, at least one raisin, regardless of their size. And this is where size starts to come into play again. So those larger dogs can usually tolerate a larger number of them, smaller dogs, fewer, we don't completely know what that toxic component is, there's been some recent papers out where they feel like they've linked it to a chemical called tartaric acid. And they haven't actually, it's just been a kind of a theory that they feel they put a couple of cases together. So before we can really say for sure, or even that being the case, there's so many different varieties of grapes, different sizes of grapes, and raisins, the amount of tartaric acid, if that's what it is, is going to vary. So we really can't put a we can't really put a specific dose on it. But when we've done is we look back at our nearly 20 Some years of data from our company, and these animals following through, they've gotten into X number, if they've shown signs if they've developed issues. And so we kind of have a rule of thumb of what we can kind of guide us towards, but unfortunately, it's one of those kind of scary things where you sometimes treat them aggressively just because of the unknown. Yeah.

28:47

Yeah. Because how would I mean, you won't know until their kidneys fail you, you know, ya know?

28:53

Yeah. And then it's too late. Yeah, you want to sit and wait and see well, and it's not something that we can. And we also get a lot of times these are estimated ingestions, the owner will say, I really think they got into three or four of them, we induce vomiting, and 20 of them came out. So it's a lot of times it's hard to know exactly what it's, you know, how much they got into. So it's one of those if it were my pet, I would be aggressive with the therapy that they got because of that unknown. Yeah,

29:19

I mean, I agree. And that and that was like, that was the question I used to ask in the emergency clinic. Okay, if they ate every single bit of blank that you have in your home, how much would that be? And then, and they would estimate and then I'd add a little more, in my estimation, because because people just don't know. And then, and then I would kind of base everything off of that, because it's so difficult to estimate. Once you realize they ate something they shouldn't. Your brain just goes into freak out, I think. And so you're not just the panicked brain does not think very, very well. And so when you're standing in the emergency room, and you're most pet As pet owners are feeling guilty, because they feel like they should have stopped it, which is not always the case, or they feel like they could have prevented it, which is not always the case. And so then they have to wade through all of that, to get to tell me exactly exactly how many pieces of sugar free gum, did your dog potentially eat out of the, like a bottle that you had in your, your purpose? No one knows. So you got to err on the side of it ate all of it. You know,

30:26

we do a lot of worst case scenarios with what we do. Okay. Does this seem reasonable? Like, well, let's figure out what the toxic dose is. How much do they have to eat to be toxic to be a problem? Right? Is this reasonable to them? But you're right, I opened my bottle of ibuprofen. I couldn't tell anybody how many was in there. So if my dog got into it, I have no idea. It's that's just the reality of life.

30:50

It is. It is. And I think that that sometimes we we need to allow for a little bit of grace in that situation. Because they're seeking care. But Dr. Jason, what did you have you were you were about 20 Guys

31:01

blue blue on passive, but I was just going to be, you know, surprising. I'm going to be shocked. You know, he had a lot of calls about grapes. If especially if you look at a lot of owners calling I'm just I bet you if I asked him to my dog, owning a cat owning friends. First, I don't have 10 friends, but I'm gonna find 10 people and I'm like, where did you get those guys? Yeah, right. And ask them Hey, do you think grapes are poisonous to dogs or whatever they would never ever assume grapes ever. I just wouldn't. I may be wrong about that. I don't know. But I'm gonna guess that my my golfing friends are gonna be like, yeah, they can have as many grapes as they want. Who on earth thinks grapes are, are tough. So I'm actually surprised. That's your number two. So that's it. Yeah. I wonder if it's a lot of veterinarians calling you about that. I know veterinarians are concerned about that.

31:43

Yeah, yeah.

31:45

So so we had a chocolate, we had grapes and raisins, xylitol, and then what?

31:51

Ibuprofen, ibuprofen deliver? To me that's so common. And it's common for them to get into it. And it's also common for humans, the pet owners to give it to their bed. Purpose, that's hurting. Yeah,

32:06

I know. And this is like, again, we're going to tell you, if you're listening out there, it's free to make a phone call to your veterinarian. It's free. And yes, you may think that your veterinarian is going to demand that you bring your pet in, but I don't know any veterinary practice. And you know, I've worked in at least 1000, where if you call and say, It's okay to give my dog ibuprofen, they're gonna answer that for you. They're gonna answer that honestly, for you for free. So, or is it would you say, to give my pet this, they're gonna answer that for you. Right. So and also, I mean, the internet is okay. I don't know anywhere on the internet that it says Ibuprofen is okay. So, yeah, so call your veterinarian before you give your pet something. Yeah. Okay, so that's a soapbox. Yeah. So ibuprofen, three episodes? Yeah. Right. Okay, so then what's, what's the last the number five?

32:59

So number five is bro methylene, which is an ingredient that's in mouse and

33:04

rapping. Right? Because I was, I was hoping that I were not that old. Dr. Jason that still makes the list.

33:10

Everyone makes five, six and seven, the different the three,

33:17

zero methylene diecast. Unknown. And is warfarin. Even the things still? Yeah, so

33:21

we group the anticoagulants together. Okay, you can probably find some Warfarin once more in Canada. That doesn't necessarily the United States. But so the other ones are like defassa, known for fast unknown, Roma die alone. Those are kind of the most common ones that we see for what we call anticoagulants. That's what people traditionally think about rat and mouse baits, they cause bleeding to occur an animal truly bleed out bleed to death, if they if you get into enough of it, and it isn't treated. But there's two other really common ingredients that are in mouse and rat baits that actually can be more problematic, which is bro methylene and it causes brain swelling to occur. And the other one is called Coley Calcifer. All which causes high blood calcium levels, which then that can cause kidney failure to develop.

34:14

That's a bad one. Yeah, so Okay, so for the bro methylene. That's the neurotoxin one right with the brain swelling. So And folks, these are things you can find on the package. So if you are using rat bait, you know, or if you don't want people to know sneak peek at wherever you have hidden the rat bait and look under the active ingredient. And you can see which one it is because if you think your dog ate it, that's the first is that the first thing you guys are going to ask. It's the first I'm gonna have this.

34:46

Yeah, it is in unfortunately, we get a lot of people who say well, it was the green square company. Yeah, there's not a universal color coding for the ingredient. Since there is one company that does color code, they're active ingredient within their company, but it's not universal. So it can really be a green block of bait could have numerous different and active ingredients in it. And they're treated so differently because they affect so many different things that we really want you to keep the packaging, if you use bait, keep the packaging, so we know what that active ingredient is.

35:25

Or I would say I would recommend taking a picture of it and keep it on keep that on your phone, right? Because sometimes we'll throw that away. You bet you take a picture of it, because you just again, your panicked brain not going to be like, you know, right on point thinking of stuff. And so I will I ask people, do you have a picture of it? If I show you a picture on the internet? Would you recognize it? That sort of thing? But yeah, okay. So glad to see rapid making the list because, I mean, why are you? Well, because because I felt like I was really old. Because when I was

35:59

about you, you feel that clear? All right.

36:03

Because at the emergency clinic, you know, the number one thing that would come in if the if the dog had epistaxis, right, fancy word for nosebleed. So the dog had blood coming out of its nose. And it was a beagle. No, I'm just kidding. But it was almost always seemed like it was a beagle that ate the rat bait. That's what they do. So yeah. And so we would we would have to treat and a lot of times we kind of have to treat for a couple of different kinds, because they didn't remember. You know what they had So, okay, so that I would

36:33

have thought I would have thought marijuana cannabis would have made I know, it's not super tall, but it made it legit. Right? Because I mean, that's,

36:39

hey, this was the year. Yeah, this was the first year marijuana made the top 10 list. I think I have a thought my thought is that because it's becoming more legalized, it's becoming okay to talk about the lives

36:55

right. Oh, yeah. Because people know what to say

36:59

people. Yeah. So you know, we still get some calls. Didn't depending on the state. So are you an attorney? Yeah. To the police. No, we're not gonna turn you into the police. We just want to help you. And I got that a lot. When I was in practice, when you know, marijuana was still illegal everywhere. I don't want to tell you I get it. I don't want you to call the police and we're not gonna call the police. We're just here that to help your pet. Yeah. So this was the first year it made the top 10 And it came in at number eight. Very strong. Number eight, a very strong

37:30

and strong. Okay, that's funny. I love the top 10 lists. That's really cool.

37:35

Okay, so we look we had chocolate, we had Xylitol Oh, sorry, grapes and raisins, xylitol. And then we had

37:41

actual poisons?

37:44

Often, ibuprofen and

37:45

then the right, yep, mouse, yeah, based marijuana. And then carprofen carprofen was the only animal specific drug product medication to make it into the top 10. And i It's the first time it made it into it and 2021 as well. Interesting. My thought My theory is that COVID kept people at home. So people noticed that their animals were more painful, less active. And so maybe they're using it more frequently. I have no idea. I have no idea if carprofen sales went up or not. That's just my thoughts. It's just total speculation. Total speculation is on next year. It may it may fall off. I don't know.

38:28

Yes, yes. Dr. Jason who is that on your lap?

38:31

This is picket. He's the one that gets into everything. Yes. Pick it

38:35

up and user. Oh, no. Not yet. Sold. Hotels. We'll get her there.

38:43

Yes. Baby pickets, baby. Yeah, it's picket. Because not even a year right.

38:50

No, seven months. Seven months? I don't know. It's not my dog. Seven mental Pomeranian.

38:55

Yeah, and Leroy was on the back couch there. We could barely see him. But we can see him. Yeah. Leroy also is the one that Jason will be like. Well, Leroy ate everything in the bottom three shelves of the pantry today because gotta shut the pageant door is a small human didn't shut it quite good enough.

39:12

That's what they're there for. So we can blame them. That's kids.

39:16

That's right. Okay, so that that's incredible. So carprofen made the list. So carprofen for everyone out there. carprofen is like the an animal non steroidal anti inflammatory, right, they're answered Ibuprofen is carprofen. Correct. So it is safe. Unless you give too much. Exactly. Yeah. Which is like, I guess the running theme in that right, which is at the beginning.

39:39

Yeah. You know, it's not uncommon for us to get calls where that pet just came home from being spayed or neutered or had some type of surgery and they ingested all of it. They ingested the whole container in there and I think you have people praising an older sore they're not going to get it anything you know, I'm nervous. My pet is been Pain and I'm not thinking feel completely clearly and they leave it out. And most of the time, they're a flavored chewable Jr. That you know, so it's easier to administer. Yeah, it's easier for that animal to take 50 of them

40:15

and not worry about it until later. Yes. Got it. Yeah. So, um, I had a burning question, and it just flew out of my head to ask you about so when? What's the most common like, the thing that when when you answer the phone, because I feel like it's a bit like the bat line, the bat phone, like

40:39

to show us the big red line right next to a radio,

40:42

like the red telephone. So and then, like, three quarters of our viewing audience will be like, what is that? We've never seen a phone like that. Right? So when the phone rings and you know, you're, you're on call, you're, you know, in the loop or whatever. And you answer it. When what is the thing that the caller can say that makes you go? Oh, thank goodness, it's gonna be okay. Like, what's the thing they're calling about most that you're like, This is okay. That like the least scary, I guess.

41:12

Yeah. Silica gel packs. Oh, little gel things that are in some like, everywhere. Everywhere the shoe box

41:26

like that. Every Amazon package you get?

41:30

Not a big deal. Not at all. Okay, so those are ones that you're like, Okay, of course, if it was a Chihuahua, and they swallowed up hole, they could have an obstruction. But not not a poisoning concern.

41:43

Is such a good answer. I would never come up with that on the spot. But I for sure. I mean, I've had to deal with that. Right? I'm like, oh, yeah, chili dog. Yeah, yeah. Anyways,

41:53

so I can remember when I was younger, I was probably in high school or college. By that point. I called my veterinarian because our dog ate a silica gel pack.

42:01

Wow. Yeah. Well, I mean, they they eat everything. Which brings me to my next question. This is a little third degree ish. But But I mean, I hope you're enjoying it. Because all of my answers. All my questions are answered. So what's the weirdest thing

42:20

you put on the spot every five seconds? Ah, that's so funny is a family show

42:25

talk about it. But if you if things gross you out, you should plug your ears and mute it right now. I think that the weirdest thing is that when animals when humans get sick, one way or the other, and they don't make it to a place where it can be disposed of. And their animal loving pet is on cleanup duty animals or animals and they ingest it. Yeah. So then we have to go through and find out what they got into? Is it? Could it still be in the stomach? Or could it be in the stool? Could it be? Is it now going to be a problem? And sometimes it is because a lot of times it's it's unfortunately a lot of times chemotherapeutic products? Oh, no.

43:11

I thought about that. Yeah, so it's puker poop for those of you who are less sophisticated like myself, she was very, pretty good presentation. Yeah, I love it.

43:22

I'm like, I don't think either way on it. And so

43:25

I so I think that's incredible. So so if someone is undergoing chemotherapy of some sort, and they, the animal gets into any puke or poop, that can be toxic to the animal, or they just call about it because they're worried and it's not really toxic. It can

43:44

be it depends on the timing, how long ago was it if they're taking a chemotherapeutic drug by mouth or, and it's been, you know, depending on which drug it is the amount of time, how it's what we call metabolized or processed through the body and how it's removed from the body. We kind of have to go through and we got to hunt that down and look through it step by step to say, is it can it still be here at this point? Can it be still be here at this point? And then decide, you know, based on that, is that going to be problematic or not?

44:20

Yeah, that's interesting. Jason,

44:23

we had to worry about that with the Iranian tan and urine like you had talked we had to we gave an Iranian can some some immuno chemotherapy, some all kinds of high dollar drugs and the hit by humans by human chemotherapy. And they said you have to isolate this animal because as soon as we give it, its passes in the urine, and that urine is highly toxic to the other ones. And we of course, like Oh, that's really smart. Don't even think about that. So yeah, it's interesting that the body gets rid of it, but it's still dangerous. So yeah,

44:53

for sure. The other fun one in the same line of talk is a caller called about her pet and her roommate had had a really fun night out and had vomited and the dog became drunk. Oh my god ingested there was that. Wow, he became he became drunk. Wow. So

45:17

that is that is an impressive amount of alcohol. Yes. Ever Sure.

45:25

Hopefully it's a very small dog which i To me that's a Great Dane. There's no way.

45:30

Dane, but I don't remember the size of the dog. To be honest. I can't remember which one it was. I know. It wasn't a huge one. But I thought I was like, that was a first for me. That actually just happened a month or two ago when I took that call. And I'm like, no, no, like, Yes. He was already Yeah, the pet was already stumbling and a tactic so difficulty walking, showing all the signs of drunkenness from Yeah.

45:56

Wow. So So dogs do become sometimes like their people. And people. Like the dog was struck. That is crazy town. That is crazy town. Okay, well, this has been like a whirlwind trip through the like, top 10 most common poison calls, I guess that you guys have gotten that was that 2021 or 2022.

46:19

So it's 2021. We have to wait until the year is

46:22

over. They do an actual top 10 They don't put a top 10 list and Halloween or just forget about the last three months of the year. Okay.

46:29

I forget. I mean, they are scientists over there. So

46:33

all right, legit. Very important to them. That's right.

46:36

That's right.

46:38

If I could give you one more didn't make top 10. But it's for the cats because I feel like we're leaving the cats out of this conversation. Because they are. As you said, they're more discriminant they've got you know, they know better than to get into things but lilies are the top call we get on cats. And I always want to point that out. A lot of people don't know that lilies are toxic to cats. And lilies can cause kidney failure and can be very fatal to these guys. So I want to put that plug in for all of you cat owners that are out

47:08

there. Is it? Is it the leafs like what part of it like is the cat eating? Yeah, so

47:14

a couple of things. One, there's a lot of plants that have lilies in the name. And these are the ones that we get concerned about are in the Lilium genus. So Stargazers, Orientals, Easter lilies, Rose lilies, so those are really common in your fresh cut flower bouquets. And obviously, at Easter time, or the Easter lilies, yeah, those are going to be those and then also the day lilies and the day lilies the genus is hemerocallis. But the day lilies are more common in your outside landscaping, so those are the ones you have to really worry about. And all parts of them are toxic. The pollen, so when you come home and your cat is orange, because it's been going to town on the new boat. Okay, you got we got to be really concerned about that. Wow. Any part of the leaves the stands even the water in that fresh cup, okay, the water is even a concern.

48:11

Wow. Honestly, we never would have thought about the water ever. Yeah. Let's say here. Can you drink this fantastic water? Drinking the water. I just wouldn't have thought about

48:21

that. And yeah, I've never even heard that. So that I mean, some incredible pearls here from Dr. Schmidt. So Wow. So Jason, do you have any any like,

48:34

I have one question. Yeah. I mean, I've had several questions on this. And apparently I like toxicology as well. But I you know, never would have guessed that was my grade and school. But anyway. So listen, who who should call this hotline? I mean, I know we talked about it. But veterinarians, pet owners, does it matter? Just whenever you recognize there might be a problem. That's who calls or what should what? What is your recommended process? Or do you have like a protocol, call the vet, then call the hotline or just cut out the vet and call the hotline right away? Or what?

49:02

Yeah, you bet. So I think if your veterinarians around, always call them, you know, call them, you've got an established relationship with them, call them if they can help you. They may refer you to us. Yeah, sometimes it's, you know, when I was in practice, I saw maybe a toxin case, I don't know, once in a blue moon, we just didn't see it very often. Yeah. And so a lot of veterinarians just aren't sure they don't know, and or they're really busy. You know, they're, it's a very busy time for veterinary clinics. And so they may need as to, you know, to go through and say, How was this process through the body, you know, how, where, what's the dose and all this that they got into, and so they may refer you to us, or you can call us directly and you can call us directly and we maybe we save you a trip into the veterinary clinic. So we can say, Gosh, this isn't going to be a concern or you know what, you can keep them at home and watch for this or that. Or we may say, You know what, you've got to go in, you've got to go into the clinic. And then I do want to point out we are a fee based service, which really ruffles feathers for a lot of people, but unfortunately human Poison Control receives government funding animal poison control does nothing, nothing no, we

50:15

we have to pay both human and veterinarians call lines are fee based 100%. The humans get their fee from the government, the other the veterinarians, you have to you have to pay them and there's no, there should be no problem with that, you should be thankful to be able to pay someone to tell you that how to save your pet, they should be 100%, especially beginning on trying to get on anybody. But we always think of things the wrong way. Sometimes we do that

50:37

you put it so great, I'm gonna remember that because I that's a great way to put it as it Yeah, humans, we are paying for it. But they're on the human side, we're just not at the time. Right? Anyways, you can call us we can decide you decide if it's a problem or not. And then what I think is really great about our services that it doesn't end there. So if they have to go to the veterinarian, the Veterinary Clinic calls us and we talk them through the whole process, this is what you need to do to treat the animal. This is what you can expect to see this is what we're watching for. And they can keep calling us back. If it takes 10 days, two weeks for this animal to recover. With lab work and everything else, they can keep calling us back no matter how often it is. And so that's something that we follow that case we follow, we help follow that particular pet until they're back home with the owner. That's fantastic.

51:31

That is fantastic. We're

51:32

gonna put a link everyone, so remain calm, don't drive off the road if you're driving and listening, and we're gonna put a link in the show notes. And if you can't find it, okay, some of you, you know who you are out there. If you can't find it in the show notes, drop us an email. And and we'll send you the link to the website, you can get the number so that you're all ready because the time to go looking for this information is not when you discover like a broken case of something on the floor when you get home. Right. The time to do this is now when your brain is not panicked. So okay, Dr. Smith, my final question is will you come back?

52:13

Absolutely. Love to this is great.

52:17

Okay, yeah, because this is super fun. And the amount of information that you packed into this one episode is incredible. And so folks, we do have a transcript up. And so there'll be a transcript of this episode you can find along with the show. So if you want to print that out, if you want to highlight it, make notes on it, however you want to appreciate it. It is available for you there. Dr. Smith, thank you so much for joining us.

52:45

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

52:47

We love it that you are a phone a friend and you are helping man the bat phone for our fellow pet lovers and animal lovers who find themselves in trouble. And I guess that's that's what we have today. So I'm Dr. Jen the vet and I'm Dr. Jason. I will catch you guys on the next episode.

53:07

This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses.