Integrated medicine

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

dogs, people, patient, vet, veterinarian, thought, horses, integrated, michelle, medicine, muscle, jason, animal, question, lectures, practice, starts, treat, working, important

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This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses. Hello and

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welcome to chats with the chatfields. This is a podcast to expand your idea of what impacts veterinarians, pet owners, and basically all animal lovers in the galaxy as humans. We are your hosts. I'm Dr. Jen the vet.

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And I'm Dr. Jason.

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And if you have not yet subscribed to our show, why not just go to Chatfieldshow.com Or find us on youtube @Chatfieldshow and subscribe today. And if you want to reach us, you can find me with any message full of love and positivity at Jen@Chatfieldshow.com

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and for all other messages please find me at Jason@Chatfieldshow.com

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Okay, we are jumping right in folks, no pitter patter, no Chitty chatty because we have a first timer in the chat room today with us. Dr. Michelle Broadhurst and now why would you know this woman and why are you gonna want to know her after this? Because she's incredible. That's just it. So she is not only a licensed chiropractor, but also an acupuncturist. Are you ready? Jason? Are you writing it down? I'm ready. an acupuncturist, a sports physician, a certified canine rehab practitioner. Is that enough? you want more?

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That's enough. Do you have more? Is there more?

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More? But wait, there's more.

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behind here

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behind door number three. No, she actually does almost everything with almost I mean any kind of she's worked on horses. But she's really dedicated her life to finding better and more efficient ways to help her patients recover from pain and injury, using not only chiropractic expertise, but what we call and what we're gonna get to today, integrated medicine, and to effectively treat most musculoskeletal problems that might be plaguing your furry friends. So into the chat room for the first time, her debut appearance, Dr. Michelle Broadhurst, welcome.

02:13

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, of course. I

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mean, I'm so okay. Jason. You have you haven't met Dr. Michelle. Before today, right? Before today? I

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have not. Right.

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But you heard me talk about her. I have. Because I met this incredible woman at a super fun conference. It was a first time conference to it was the vets against insanity con.

02:39

Vets against insanity con. You guys had to dress up and stuff. Is that what that means? Or what that means absolutely. But you're gonna ask what you guys dressed up as?

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Yes, yeah, no. Okay, so it was happening around Halloween. So naturally, the con incorporated costume event, and I went as Little Red Riding Hood. And Dr. Michelle?

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Well, I got stuck in a hot dog costume.

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I don't know how you get stuck in a hot dog.

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This is Story. There's always a story. Right. So I had ordered some questions on Amazon. And of course, true to true to speed. They did not arrive on time. So Sarah, who was the host of that con was like, I got a costume for you

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as an extra hot dog costume.

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Sarah for emergencies.

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So Jen was very glam in her Red Riding Hood costume. And I was the hot dog.

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You're a very hot dog walking around

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She was the best hot dog. Because then also with the party was like a unicorn on a hoverboard. Which was very, but then briefly was off the hoverboard. On her back for a little while. Quickly off the hoverboard. Yes. So now we had a great time. But what I really loved was Michelle, your lectures and that was what intrigued me and why I was so excited when you agreed to join us in the chat room.

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Did you do the lectures on a hot dog costume?

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I did not. I thought it would have been mildly distracting and I had no peripheral vision so that

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she didn't have any. I sat down I was like, Hey, man, and she turned to face me full on and said Oh, hey. Which is a little disconcerting when you've just met someone, but anyway, what I loved was your lectures on integrative medicine and that's what I want to focus on. But first, you got to tell everyone where your lovely accent originates?

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Yeah, so I'm originally from South Africa. I spent the better part of the coming years and I've been in the States for almost five years.

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So Okay, excellent. it. And I mean, we this is a podcast for pet lovers, animal lovers. Right. And that was one of the things I thought was unique about your career as well is that you work on horses. I think initially right after you decided that people were people.

05:22

Yeah, I did both. So I had I kind of three practices within my practice. I did an equine practice, canine practice and a human practice, which was really fun because I never got what

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was this in South Africa? Yeah, in Cape Town. I say it right. Because most most of us say South Africa. But you guys just roll it off your tongue. So you had you had animals and humans in the same? Same practice?

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Yeah, except the horses obviously. Not.

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But more or less the same. That is super never see that here.

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So so it was very cool. We like had two different entrances. So I had a dog practice at the back. And I had a human practice at the friend with a whole bunch of associates. And we had this awesome bosses and kind of get going. It was really Yeah,

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you know, we call that we, you know, we call that when you have the humans in the front of the dogs coming in the back. We call that business in the front. Party in the back? Absolutely.

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But it applies the same exact way. Right?

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It does. Absolutely. Okay, so it was really fun. So I think that's really intriguing. Because I think for folks who have worked with horses, kind of integrating chiropractic, what do you say? Chiropractic? Chiropractic? Chiropractic? Yeah, chiropractic into your horses care? That kind of makes sense intuitively, right? Because their back is so important. Because we I mean, that's where we sit. And if you can't ride that limits, what your horse is able to do for you. Certainly limits the versatility. But then there's dogs, right. And that was what was I found intriguing about your lectures. So first of all, you can you share with us, like, what what is when people talk about integrative medicine? What does that even mean?

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So it's kind of a term, you know, way back in the day, people will call it like holistic, great, but then it got all woowoo. And you know, what?

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I just thought that maybe I misheard. But I did not. I did. I forgot who I hate it when things go.

07:30

Well, the problem is, is that, you know, there's complimentary care, and there's alternative care. And I think the most important thing, if we are looking for all, like different kinds of streams to go in, it should never be completely alternative. Because alternative implies that we're not working together with, whereas complementary care is really working alongside so very much what I focus on. And what I try to teach when I teach is about complementary care. So there's never, if there was one book, there would only be one book, there's one way of doing things, right. And so there's this big box of tools that we have available to us to treat patients in different ways. So especially if you can't cut it, and you can't medicate it.

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You can cut or medicate everything that's out there. Everything fell into one of those two things, right?

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Oh my gosh, believe it or not know

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about this, all right.

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In the podcast,

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you're out and about.

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And so here's the thing is like and is that always the best alternative that you're giving your patients. So integrative care really looks at things from a whole different perspective. So you know whether you're looking at the veterinarian who's doing herbals and homeopathics, and natural apathy, but combining that potentially with pharmaceuticals, or just doing that on its own. And then you've got your kind of muscular skeletal side where you've got shockwave and laser and acupuncture and chiropractic and osteopathy, and massage and home exercise programs and unwanted trips. And the coolest thing about this is that every there is there is a tool for every animal, we just have to find it and what's going to work best to improve their quality of life. Now, we can't go oh, well, this is the you know, this is the magic pill. This is like red or blue, right? It's not like that. So, really, our My goal as a practitioner is always to enhance an animal's life and give it the best quality for as long as we possibly can. That's really what it is. Do it. Are we going to give the 13 year old Labrador its three year old self back? No, that ship has sailed, but can we improve their quality of life? Absolutely.

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Yeah. And I think honestly, that's I mean, that's, that's all I hope that my doctor does for me. Although if I find one that could give me back like my 24 year old So I'm down with that. Okay, so I really that was one of the things that really drew me into your lectures was the fact that integrated medicine does not need to be exclusive. It's not about exclusivity. It's about integrating all of the tools available. Not, you know, forsaking one in favor of the other. And I think a lot of times when we, we find people who, who look at Western medicine, but also her kind of, you know, looking outside that Western box. A lot of times they're, when they look for guidance in that area, they find people who say you must forsake everything Western and you've only got to use sort of,

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either or I wouldn't do it that 100% people, even now, although maybe it's changing, I don't I don't to be honest, I don't know. But it's because it seems like your definition was great. Like, yeah, who wouldn't want to delve into the giant box of tools to help the either human or animal better more options means more choices. But usually, it seems either or, either. It's this way or it's, it's that way, so integrated over holistic.

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And I agree with you. And unfortunately, you know, that's my definition. Yeah, it's not everybody's definition as mine.

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So it's both of ours now. And my two people

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learning the world.

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I think the biggest thing is really, that's where people need to be discerning both of their traditional as far as like, the contemporary veterinary practitioner, as well as their integrative practitioner, right is, are they willing to be a team because, you know, we need our general practitioners, we need our surgeons, we need our oncologist, we need our integrative practitioners, if they're not willing to work as a team, you've got the wrong team. Because

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I never interrupt you right there. Because just you like, I want people to realize that, like, you're not a veterinarian. And you're not like we're not seeking to be a veterinarian or a veterinarian at all right. And so, when when you talk about integration, it is a team effort. That's necessary. So yeah, so I want to make sure that our listeners don't miss that. But now that we're all integrated, and we recognize we're all on a team, we're going to take a break, stay with us because we're talking about some specific issues that Dr. Broadhurst sees routinely. So hang with us on we'll see on the other side of the break. Dr. Jenn the vet, and I'm here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Keith lassen, he's got an incredibly interesting story all about full bucket health,

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my college roommate and that school, housemate, Dr. Rob Franklin and I were collaborating on some cases, both of us were struggling with diarrhea and some of our patients, whether it was after a procedure or after after an illness. So we created a formulation but we didn't want to just create a formulation. We also wanted to create a movement and animal health, for being able to help animals in need through the use of bark products that we developed that really has resulted in our one for one giving program, which we're really proud of, as much as we are our formulations for dogs versus cats.

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And so if you want to know more about their one for when giving it full bucket, or if you're interested in better supporting your dog, cat or horses, digestive health, head over to full bucket health.com to learn more. Before we get back with Dr. Bronner's and our integrated medicine, let's see what we have cooking from vet school.

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These view from that school brought to you by the AVMA trust, veterinarian inspired coverage protecting you through it all.

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Hello, welcome to viz view vet school. I'm v and this is my view. You may be wondering what I'm doing. I'm scrubbing kind of first step. Numbers, numbers numbers. Yep, I am scrubbing. It's for surgery. It turns out counting is super important in bed school. For example, right now I am counting to 15 I lost count like 10 times it's okay over and over and over. It's 15 scrubs for each surface of my finger palm. Each finger each side look at it. It's ridiculous. Wrist, forearm, etc. This truly makes you appreciate the birthday song method of washing your hands right? Why am I counting to 15? Is there something magical about 15 He passes with a scrub brush. Does 15 strike fear in the hearts of all bacteria and other infectious agents? No, of course not. Well, at least not that I know of, sort of hard to inquire. But 15 is a magical number than what gives? Well, counting to 15. And scrubbing every different surface individually is not only a great exfoliator My hands have never been softer seriously. But it gets me the adequate contact time for disinfection contact time. That's the important thing in order to decrease the likelihood of surgical infection stemming from my potentially dirty grimy fingers or fingernails, so I would say that 15 is a pretty magical number and important number for surgery. I'm v and this is my view. And yes, I will still be scrubbing the next time you see me

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these view from vet school, brought to you by the AVMA trust, veterinarian inspired coverage protecting you through it all.

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Okay, well, welcome back. And Dr. Broadhurst is still here, we're still integrated. I love that phrase. So I, I'm acutely interested as I was when I sat in your lectures at the conference to hear about, okay, I get it, we're embracing everything. You know, it's all warm, fuzzy, and we're integrating we're using every tool in our box. What exactly does that mean, for me as a veterinarian or a pet owner? What is? What does that look like most often for you? Because you you're you were in the States, you are working with a veterinarian, and I think maybe you're opening a brand new practice or so. Yeah. And so what does that mean? So what kind of problems can you help with?

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Well, you know, everybody always kind of unfortunately, has gone to like, integrative care is the last chance saloon and the past, people are starting to get much better with that, especially on the human side. Like they're choosing better for the kids. So they're doing like natural empathy and homeopathy and, and preventative stuff before it becomes curative in the human world. Yeah, that's what we're trying to kind of bring across into the animal world. So making sure you've got the right diet for your, for your dog, let's say or your cat, like, are we starting on it the best foot because one of the things that we realizing more and more with research is when you get a puppy or you get a kitten, that little individual is starting out pretty much where it's mum ended off. So it doesn't get a blank slate. It doesn't get like the perfect microbiome. It doesn't get the perfect genetics. It doesn't have all the good stuff like Oh, you're 100% Fantastic. There

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are many. I'm sorry. You have not yet met cozy.

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She's perfect except for that little thing in her bed that we shall not talk about.

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No, no, I get it though. But yeah, like I get it. So they're not a blank slate that starts perfect. And he only goes downhill.

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Well, exactly. So if we can get them when they are in their anabolic state and they are actually able to repair and able to do well, that really sets them up for the rest of their lives. So not only do we treat like the old and decrepit dogs that are like now battling with agents diseases, we look at everything from the puppy or the kitten all the way over to you know when it's time to say goodbye. So a lot of the things that we see is because of that is things like osteoarthritis, weakness in the hind end, you know, lameness we see, just, you know, for clients who are really in touch, they will actually bring the animals in from the beginning or like, Oh, hey, I've noticed the slightest difference, like they can't get up on the couch anymore, or they sit funny, or they just not themselves. And, you know, one of the biggest things with with the nervous system is we know that when there's inflammation and pain, it actually changes their behavior and it changes the way that they are able to interpret emotions and exude those. So those little things are really important. So we see everything from post surgical to agents, diseases to lameness.

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And you're what you're not asking. So you're coupled with a veterinarian in the practice, and you're not asking people to change who their vet is, or stop giving glucosamine Codrington or, you know, stop giving anti-inflammatories to their dog. You're just saying, Hey, your your creature, your furry friend might be able to get to a better quality of Live if we add this in,

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what's what's the this? Like? What is the, the way I thought of how, you know the term, integrative medicine is sort of new to me, I pretty brand new to me. And it's not necessarily new, like it's been around for a while, but it's new to me. But but when I thought of stuff like that, like holistic medicine, you know, it was more like preventative, it was more some kind of Eastern medicine and you know, stuff over here that was like, Oh, my God, that is right. Yeah. Herbs and herbs and smoke and all this stuff. And it was like, Okay, go through this door, and never come back. Right, you know, whatever. But it seems like it's not the case. So when you say add this, or add that, what is some of the this? I know? I know, it varies with the case, obviously. But what would some of that be?

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So for example, it also depends on your scope of practice, right? So I work with a a integrative veterinarian who does a lot of herbs and homeopathy and acupuncture, and she does a lot of nutritional stuff. So she helps to heal the body and get them kind of back on track using nutrition and different nutritional pet plans. In my practice, I cheat really much more biomechanically, and muscular skeletal ease. So. So the aim of integrative medicine is yes, not to take away what they've got. But you know, if we could, for example, take a dog that's on the trifecta. I call it the trifecta, because everyone's on meth, a carbonyl, carprofen and gabapentin, right? Yeah. And we're at a point where it's okay. I mean, it helps if they don't take it, they can't move. But imagine we could get that down to we could actually minimize the amount of medication that they're taking, and they still have a good quality of life. So we're not having the knock on effects with the liver and kidney and things like that. Like, wouldn't that be a great place to be? Of course, and yeah, to say, so we do that using a different variety of things. So the underwater treadmill is a great option, it reduces, you know, if you put it at the right level, you can reduce the impact by up to like, 75 80% on the joints. And so, you know, if we're looking at dogs that are getting super weak in the back end, and they're not able to go for their mile walks anymore, they're struggling to get up, we're still getting the concussion, which means we're still getting bone growth. We're not, you know, we're preventing osteoporosis and things like that. But we're still getting endurance, we're getting concussions. So we, you know, we're building strength, which is amazing. And also, I

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think, the more that you use the joints, if you exercise the joints, then the more lubricated they become, right? Right. Because body has to be sort of stimulated to be like, Oh, that's supposed to move. Let me put that joint fluid in there.

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Exactly. Yeah, you don't know if you lose it, right. If you don't use it, you lose it. So you know, lasers are a great option. It's really helpful for wound healing, decreasing inflammation. I love extracorporeal shockwave because it works on a stem cell level, as well as increasing blood flow to the to the area that you're using it in. And myofascial work is really, really important. So getting rid of trigger points, getting rid of myofascial pain, using a variety of different techniques is really important. Chiropractic gets everything moving helps to stimulate the nervous system. So it's really dependent on the patient as to what needs to be done. And I think that's the biggest thing, if you're only going to an acupuncturist, or you're only going to a chiropractor, that's all you're going to get when you look at somebody who's kind of got the variety of tools in their toolbox that just allows them to treat your patient in such a better manner, because you've got more than one thing.

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Right? Instead of a hammer, you have a Swiss army knife, right. So, so getting down to like a very specific thing. And this was one of the pearls that I took out of your lectures was, you know, if we see older dogs, and when you see an older dog, and I just read for me, it just crystallizes, like the quintessential patient I see with this routinely is an older herding breed. So like an older Australian Shepherd and older Border Collie or an older mix of, you know, a breed with any of those two, and they come in and they're slowing down, you know, they're 10 or so slowing down some, maybe they're even only eight or nine. And so they're they appear to be gaining weight, because they're slowing down and food is love. So owners love them more. They want to they feel like they're uncomfortable because they're getting older, and they have some muscle atrophy. Right. So I note note would note the muscle atrophy in the back end, everyone knows that your dog gets a little bit thinner in the back end. But what happens is or what I thought was happening was they would get these symmetrical fat deposits that were like if I'm looking down at the dog, they're back In the looking over the spine, they're like in the back Third, the final third. And they're they're almost like masses, right on either side of the spine. And, but then they would have no no rear end, no leg really behind it, and their back legs. And I would be like, Oh, it's just fat deposits. Hey, guess what? It's not Dr. Broadhurst has a lightened devalue me, as well as I think almost everybody in the room? No. So tell us about that. Because I think that's one thing that you like, you just blew me out of the water with that, that's muscle that's not fat. And there's reason for it.

25:40

Look, and like I said, That's not to say that the like 30 pound overweight Labrador that's sitting in your office that there's not fat there to

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be like a 70 or 80 pound Chocolate Lab.

25:55

But this was muscle This is talking about?

26:00

Um, so it's all of this, right? So I mean, realistically, so what starts to happen is that the hind end is really where the power comes from. Right? Yes. So if you lose your Beyonce, but in the back end, so we've got no glutes we've got like your hamstrings are atrophying, they do this little piston walk where they used to be a gazelle, okay, what starts to happen is we lose those extensors. So we lose those glute needs, we lose the hamstring. You know, that starts to atrophy. So we're not getting good muscle mass there. So what starts to happen is they almost deadlifting all the time with their backs. So instead of using the propulsion of that hind end, because they can't go into extension, what they're doing is they're overloading the Para spinals, and the quadratus lumborum muscle, which are the big stabilizers of that lumbar spine. And so they're using that all the time to propel that hind limb forward. So they're getting completely birth, and lower back. And what starts to happen is, if you look at them, they're loading through onto their front end. So they look like they're about to pull into a handstand, that's something they shouldn't be doing. And those muscles in the shoulders are really not equipped to deal with that. So that, you know, because they've got weakness and potentially osteoarthritis or something going on on a neural level in the back end, they start overloading the floor, and then that's where we really come into trouble because they've got to dodgy hind legs, and now they've got two really sore front legs, that doesn't leave us in a very good position. So especially with my paralyzed patients who have had like spinal strokes, or just, you know, IVDD, or something in the backend. I really if that is if that ship has sailed, we don't even really concentrate on that very much. Now we're talking about trying to preserve the front end. Because, you know, we can do kind of two dodgy ones, but we can't do four. So yeah, that changes your whole treatment protocol. But that's what people start to, to. You know, it's weird, because I often say to people go and look at a picture of your dog three years ago, did like this. And they're like, oh, no, no. And we get back to when he gets shot. Right, you know, yeah. Because we see them every day.

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Yeah, so we don't notice. But that was that was the thing. So now like, because I can see those dogs so so she did a demo with a Great Dane. And if you get to pick what creature you're going to use for a demo, don't pick it to Allah pick a Great Dane, because everyone no matter how far away they are, from the can see what's going on. Right? So she had this lovely, Great Dane and birdie. And she, you could see as soon as she had her sit down and get up, you can see how they're compensating for not having that explosion. If they're just sitting, then they should explode their rear end should just stand up and push forward on those front legs. But when they don't have that strength, or or it's uncomfortable, now it's painful, right? Yeah, then they really just use their back to just kind of Yank their whole back end up. And that's where you get those, those two giant muscles on either side, like where you would imagine the kidneys might be hanging out, right? That last third. And it's just hypertrophy of that muscle to compensate. And I thought, oh my goodness, I gotta go back. I gotta take care of all those dogs. Because they're, you know, most of them were already on something, or osteoarthritis, but, you know, maybe they need an underwater treadmill for a little bit to get that back end. But you know, the hind leg strength up or maybe they need something else that Dr. Michelle has available that I don't even know about. But yeah, but you know, just recognizing that the, the dog is altering their motility, their behavior, their muscle use because of discomfort. That's just an eye opener, right? So

29:57

we're talking about integrative medicine here. Is it fair to say Say, because I'm still trying to you guys are talking about specific cases, I'm still trying to discern the difference and how they can work together. Because that's really what is super interesting to me is working. Yeah, working two different, it's essentially two different types of medicine together. And I have another question for you in just a minute. But, but is it fair to say, or close? Or even in same ballpark? Maybe the the medicine that we're used to sort of this is gonna sound terrible. So don't don't don't hate on me and internet is hide the pain cover the symptoms, whereas the integrative medicine works in conjunction, but also focuses on the cause of the pain does that?

30:36

Does that make sense? Or 100%? Right?

30:39

So never gotten 100% My entire life? Not once, ever.

30:42

I mean, come on, Dr. Michelle. Now we can't even we're not gonna be able to talk to him anymore.

30:47

She gave him a weird things. I know. Yeah. Well, yes, no, that's exactly the whole thing. So pain inhibition is something very real, right? So when you start when the dogs start experiencing pain, they start doing funky, weird things. So they won't jump in the car. They don't want to go upstairs because they don't trust their bodies anymore. Right?

31:06

Right. That same with us. No different, right?

31:12

So then they come to you and they go, this is what's going on. So you give them medication to help with that. And it does help for a certain period of time. But what we continually see then is on a, on an owner symptomatology, they may get better. From an objective view, they probably not because we're not dealing with the cause. So they continue to atrophy in that back end that continue to kind of grow weak at a slower rate, because we almost, you know, we're hiding it, and we're dampening those pain mechanisms. But we're not really treating the cause exactly what you said. So that's where integrative medicine comes in. We got Okay, cool. So like, in my practice, I don't spend a ton of time doing exercises with the dog, because it's like going to the gym every two weeks and hoping you'll get a six pack like

32:02

that's not how it works. I'm sorry. Let's move on. So I spend

32:07

a lot of time I'm gonna go get my money back right now.

32:15

So yeah, so I spend time teaching clients how to do things, because if they're doing it at home once or twice a day, and we're going to see huge benefit. And I never normally give them more than three exercises, because I wouldn't do that with my dog more than three. So I kind of gauge it on what I'm willing to do. Yeah. And then when they participants in that they do really, really well, because there's continuity. And again, we know that that that disease is there, but if we could even reverse it from disease to dysfunction, because we are enabling the functional side of things as far as the muscles, ligaments, tendons, capsules, oh my gosh, what a game changer. Like it, you know, in human medicine, it would be considered almost malpractice to do a hip surgery or a knee surgery or a shoulder surgery and not send your patient the patient for physical therapy. Right, right.

33:05

And we sort of do that. I mean, we sort of do, we sort of ramp up back to regular activity. But I agree we're not doing kind of those specific, isolated, repetitive motions or exercises, like, you know, we get like, you know, when you when you get surgery on your shoulder, you get a band, I mean, you go you go from no band, right to just moving arm to, now you have a band, then you go through the colors of band, right with more resistance, and then you get to a weight. And we're not doing that.

33:37

Well, dogs, again, like, like, I was talking to a dear friend of mine, she's been in practice for oh my gosh, probably 40 years. And I would say to you, do you remember 20 years ago? Like was there this level of cranial cruciate damage? Like did we all just miss it? Or has this been a genetic change? Is this what is happening? Because now everything has a cranial cruciate? Oh, not everything. But you know, what I'm saying is like, why have we got to this point? And are we really treating? Because, you know, if we could pick it up beforehand, and that's my biggest goal is trying to teach veterinarians on how to how to look from a different perspective is, if we could pick it up early. And let's say have a partial, we do like five sessions of Shockwave on Earth, the dog does way better, right? We don't have to go through 10,000 or $1,000 of surgery, rehabilitation and then do the other knee and then do the other knee, the knee because the 60% prevalence, you know, if we could pick it up early, what a different life we could have. If we can go hey, I think your dog has happened mobility which most vets don't even though that exists in dogs, right. Like this dog has Hypermobility syndrome like

34:53

and that means that means they're less mobile. It means they have lowered extra to stretch. I was there to straw white paper with your accent I thought you were saying hypo motility.

35:04

Oh, it's right. So okay, hypermobility where things don't move and we get hypermobility where things move too much, okay. And so it's super hard to take something that moves too much and make it sticky again. Right? That's true. You ever tried to undo chewing gum. So that's where the functional stuff comes in. Like, let's train that into let's give you that stability. Let's, let's make it better. So, again, every patient is different. Most of the patients will see have hypermobility, so too little mobility in the joints. And that as well creates issues and knock on effects throughout the body and compensate, right. So yeah.

35:43

And so And there's actually ongoing research these days, looking at why dogs tear their cruciate ligament because she's saying cranial cruciate and we also call it the ACL, the anterior cruciate in people. It's ACL, dogs, CCO, and they're looking at that, and they think it's actually multifactorial. And one of the things is the lack of sex hormones, because we stay in neutered dogs. And so what you're not saying like to, you're not going all the way back to that part, you're just saying, we're actually not recognizing when that ligament first starts to tear. And they do that in humans, right, with like a rotator cuff injury, your shoulder starts hurting, you stop using it, you get less mobile, and you say, You know what, I'm gonna go the doctor, I should be able to use that. Yeah. And sometimes they say, We don't need surgery, because it's not yet fully torn. It's just a small tear. And so they send you to rehab. It's the same thing.

36:40

And little things like you saw in the in the back on, yeah, there's certain movements that are going to tell us a whole story if you know what to look for. Right. And that's the thing is that you can do a very simple workup in probably two minutes. And actually see if you if you know, where things are, what happens at each step of the way, you can actually identify dysfunction, and that is like, Oh, my blown bed for life. You know, like those patients will those clients will love you. And you could very, very possibly prevent the ongoing dysfunction turning into disease.

37:18

Yeah. I mean, just sit with that for a minute. That's pretty incredible.

37:24

Yeah, the whole the whole, the whole concept is actually, it seems like common sense, right? Like, we all change your what most of us change your oil for the same exact reason, right? I'm not Doctor car, but maintenance is better than then than not. And anyway, so I have I have a couple I don't know if you guys want to delve more questions. Oh, yeah, I got a lot of doings. Super interesting to me. Because you bring a lot of different things to the table here. You bring a different culture, like you drink a wholly different country, and their perspective on medicine. Yeah, to hear and a whole, not a wholly different way, but a different way to look at, you know, integrating things. So, so my question is, in South Africa, how is it right? And doing it right? Um, how was How was this thought of and looked at and received, you're over there versus over here in terms of the acceptance of maybe a different deal or they have a whole different concept of of Petcare? Good

38:18

question. Do

38:19

you want me to go and have a tequila to get brave to answer this question? No,

38:23

no. I just, you know, yeah, just just how open is the Veterinary Medical, I guess, profession. They're too complimentary therapy compared to the US.

38:40

You know, when I started 20 years ago, it was not a thing at all, I think there were probably two or three vets who were doing kind of what I was doing. And there was no legislation, like nothing really existed. So it was wonderful. Because not because of the legislation thing, but because it was so new and and, you know, South Africans, I think, are generally because healthcare is so expensive. And we have a culture and in most of the cultures of prevention, and because people have to dip into their pocket to actually pay for stuff so it really is quite expensive. Yeah, so it took off like an absolute bomb. It was amazing. And, and you know, the vets, I, my biggest thing is relationships. So I never want to replace somebody, I want to enhance them. So when we talking with veterinarians, I'm like, I'm not I'm here to make you look better. That's it. I'm not here to take your job. I'm not here to take your patient. I don't do what you do at all. And I have no desire to go back to that school and do that because I'm already I love what I do. I don't want to stick my arm halfway up a horse. No one at all. So no, it's very sure we

39:57

can arrange that no desire none. I'm good. but I'm not

40:00

sure anyone has that desire, it's just part of the gig.

40:04

Some of the events I worked with, I thought they only had one hand for like. No, but that was the beauty. So I was very fortunate, I got invited into the thoroughbred racing world where I treated a lot of this said, animals, and I treated a lot of the resources, like some of the top resources in the world. So I was very fortunate to be in that world where I was working conjunctively with veterinarians who honestly didn't completely understand what I did, but were quite willing to let me do what I needed to do. And they were like, I don't know what she does, but just get her because they were

40:42

pretty secure. And yeah, it's just a purity issue. And you're working with these people who does deserve investment. And they're, you know, their favorite animal. And they're like, whatever it takes, and I'm gonna do you really? I mean, if you could do it, you would choose, let me look inside this giant. Oh, yeah, that's thing if that was possible all the time. So yeah, that's what a great place to start people that were actually willing to do that. So

41:03

yeah, so I mean, that was great. And then the dog will two people just love their dogs. People love their dogs more than, you know, they were kind of getting this, this shift now on a cultural level that people want to have dogs more than they want to have children in a lot of cases, because of the expense factor. You know, and just a whole bunch of different reasons. People love their dogs.

41:25

Usually your dog loves you forever. But your kid when they grow up, you better be nice to them. Maybe they don't. Yeah. Jason, how you doing over there? That's why you had three.

41:38

Well, you know, here's the thing is like, I always say to people, never, they're never gonna be on drugs, unless you give them they're never gonna steal your car or needed like a tertiary education. It's true. You're good. Like, we're solid. Yeah. So yeah, so it was great in South Africa, you know, and that was my perspective, for almost 20 years of practice there. Being in the States is a little more tricky. I feel like there's a lot more. And I use this word very kindly. I think there's a lot more insecurity and lack of wanting to share here there. People feel like if they send their patients somewhere that they never get to get them back.

42:15

Of course, that's right. That's right. I just shattered I thought, yeah, say that since Yeah. Because it's Yeah, and it's your livelihood. And you know, it's a different deal. So

42:25

and, you know, yeah, they just understood actually, that that's shouldn't be, I mean, I can't speak for every practitioner, I can just speak for myself. But that is never my intention. Like, I pick up the phone, every third patient, every third treatment session, I send them a note, hey, this is where we're at. This is what I'm thinking, what do you

42:42

think, but I think to veterinarians, I think not every veterinarian approaches, the fact that we don't know everything. And we, we know, no single person can know everything, right? And I so I think there's a difference in the way that we approach or are comfortable with, or uncomfortable with the fact that we don't know everything, and we can't fix every creature. We know, we know a lot of things and we and we know how to fix a good many things. And if we can't fix it, we'll just give you enough drugs that you don't care. But, but but functional medicine and integrated medicine, I think is is very different. But but for the racehorse industry, it's not right, because that horse exists to function. Right? And they love that, right? Because they they're just enamored with the beauty of that function. But pets are different because pets don't have to function at that high level in order to to provide value. And in fact, the reason that we want them to continue to function is because they provide value, right, but they still provide the same value. Yeah, but and so I think maybe there's like a little bit of a difference in how the veterinarian approaches that fact, whether they're in you know, working at the track, whether they're working with breeding horses, or whether they're working with with companion animals. I think it's a little it's a little different. And so probably plays into that a little bit.

44:18

Well, I think there's that I also just think that people need to realize that there's no lack of patience. Right? And that and that not everybody like Dr. Jenn, you're going to attract a totally different demographic to Dr. Jason. Like just because you're a different human beings. Zero. So just because you're different human beings. You know, my husband and I were in practice, and we would attract completely different people, even though we were in the exact same building, right? Because we're different people. And this is something that I think people need to start realizing as professionals is like, the thing that makes us professional is by doing right by our patient in spite of ourselves.

44:58

Right. And I agree like we say here in the chat room all the time. If you don't like your veterinarian, you don't trust your veterinarian. Hey, it's time to get a new veterinarian. Another

45:07

one, right. Yeah, there's another, like the only ones gonna suffer with that is that is the pet is the pet

45:12

for sure. Exactly. And that's the thing is like you, again, it comes back to and you heard me talk about this, it comes back to team, right? If you if you're not part of a team, because I can't do I have no desire to do veterinary work, I don't want to prescribe, I don't want to do any of those sorts of things. But my gosh, can I bring value Absolutely. In my, in my quarter,

45:34

right, and your niche, and my niche. And

45:37

and that's the thing. And you know, for the vets out there who are watching, like, interview people make sure that they are part of your team that they are doing. You know, the worst thing is when you refer someone somewhere, and then you never see that dog again, because they've been like swept up under the other person's wing. And again, like you can't promise and not deliver. That's the biggest thing. Like when you start promising and not delivering, you're gonna lose that client, and you're gonna lose a patient and you're probably going to lose 10 more, because people love to tell the bad things that you've done, right? Don't love to scream about the good things that you've done well, but

46:12

I think the concept that we're all the veterinarian, the owner, the the neighbor, the dog sitter, the boarding kennel, the groomer, everyone is on the team to support the quality of life for that animal. And if there's another member that can be added to the team to provide significant value. What's wrong with that? You know, and of course, naturally, the captain of the team is the owner. You know, it's because they live with that creature. So, yeah, I mean, I maybe that's the reason that integrated medicine, your integrative medicine lectures just appealed to me so so significantly, was because of that team. Jason, you can get with that. Right? The team approach

47:01

part of that all of a team, a team, for sure. Yeah, I was just thinking about my next question. What is your next question?

47:07

I don't know if we have time. We have time for one more Dr. Jason question.

47:11

Okay. We don't mind. Yeah, I've been. So comparing both of them or whatever. Not even both both both places. Just how is the? Because like you said, the captain of the team, is the owner or the steward of the pets life? How are they accepting of this sort of integrated medicine? Like I would think that in this in the United States, maybe it's not so great, because it's so ingrained, and it's going to the veterinarian, let's get a pill for that's how we take care of ourselves. I got a headache. Let me take 27 Okay, what causes I want you to fix my, my, my animal? Because it's not, it's a different thing. Right? The first thing people are gonna think of, unfortunately, is how much is this going to cost? It's rare to have thoroughbred horse, horse owners as your client, they don't care, right? They don't make a difference for pocketbooks. Yeah, the overall client is going to be and rightfully so. How's this in relation to why can actually spend? So do you have a lot of issues with that? You know, in this sort of integrated medicine practice,

48:12

for sure. I mean, money is a big deal, especially right now, you know, as things are turning, I think also as practitioners, then we have to evolve. So like what my partner in crime and I are doing is we're going to be like putting out a lot of videos, what people can actually do that are free. Like to get them to get them started, because we have to meet them where they're at, you know, you have a set protocol of like, hey, I need to see you twice. And I hit this by twice a week, but then I see once a week, but there's like, I can't do that. Okay, so then you're going to do nothing like that, to me is almost malpractice on my part because I'm not meeting them where they're at. So I'm like, Okay, what, let's talk about the elephant in the room, right? What can you afford? What can you commit to? Okay, like maybe every two weeks, maybe once a month, Okay, then let's prioritize this. I'm gonna give you stuff to do at home. Because this is not like complete brain surgery. If you do this, right, you can make a huge difference. Like if we just change the food, added this thing. And yeah, we like that's, again, that's my partner's side. But like, if I give you these exercises, if you can do some massage, you can do some mobilizations with your dog. This is what I want you to do on a walk, I want you to do some weaves. I want you to do this, like that's gonna strengthen them. They are doing half of the stuff so I don't have to do it, which I love. Yeah.

49:36

And I think that's part of it, too. Like, number one. People talk about access to care. And I'm like, well, access to care means if I'm the vet and I show up and I say this is ideally what I want to do, and you say, can't do that, for whatever reason, whether we're it doesn't matter the reason to me, okay, so here's the second best. Here's the third sometimes we get to the fourth or fifth, like my fourth or fifth choice. So what I would recommend, but, again, we're doing something, right, exactly, we're doing something, it doesn't matter if you can't do everything, you can do something. But what I really liked about the integrated is as committed as the owner is, that's how much kale get done. And that's how quickly they can recover that function, or that's how slowly they'll recover that function. And it's the same thing with humans, right? When you have surgery, or would you something, if you don't do your stuff at home, and you just do it, when you're at the physical therapist, you're gonna take the entire 18 weeks to recover that they say it takes, you know, and if you don't take care of your nutrition, and if you don't sleep, and let your body rest and recover, like if you don't do those things, so 100% crosses over. Right?

50:50

So principles,

50:51

yeah, and that's what people can understand. I mean, just like you said, so I'm super excited that you guys might have videos out for people. So we will, once those are up, don't worry, we're gonna give you a link where you can follow Dr. Broadhurst. Dr. Michelle, and you can keep up with her, as she puts out things, things that you can use with your team, but also be able to get in touch with her. Um, Jason, did you have another burning question? Oh,

51:18

I got them all answered, I'm ready to roll. I do think it's awesome. Working together. I think it's an interesting concept. And I do think, you know, it will take off, it's just a matter of overcoming certain, you know, society beliefs are the weight of the way we act and stuff like that. So I think it's fantastic. It's the only way to go. Really. So

51:37

yeah. So I'm Dr. Michelle Broadhurst thank you so much for joining us in the chat room today.

51:43

Thank you for having me. It was an enlightening

51:45

us. Yes. Do you want to tell people where they can find you? And then we'll link to it in the show notes. You want to go in and tell us? How can they find you?

51:52

Sure. So my website is www dot duck Michelle B with one l.com. And I'm on Facebook. I'm on Instagram and the dots Michelle Broadhurst. So if you're looking me up, send me an invite, and I will accept

52:09

you. Oh, awesome. We knew you would accept everybody, because you're that person. That's right, that is kind of her thing. So yeah, and I do not drive off the road. If you're listening in your car right now, because we're gonna link it in the show notes. You can find it later. We'll also hyperlinked to all of it, and put up some interesting references for everyone. So this has been an incredibly integrated episode, all about integrated medicine. And we do hope that we'll have Dr. Michelle, join us again in the chat room at a later date to talk more about specifics. But for today, that's all we have for you. So I'm Dr. Jen the vet, and I'm Dr. Jason and we will catch you all on the next episode.

52:51

This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses.