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This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses.

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Hello, and welcome to another episode of chats with the Chatfields. We're your hosts, I'm Dr. Jen the vet.

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And I'm Dr. Jason.

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If you have not yet subscribed to our show,

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why not?!

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then hit that subscribe button today. And if you want to reach us and you've got a message full of love and positivity, you can reach me at Jen@Chatfieldshow.com and

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for Everyone else with some real questions. You can reach me at Jason@Chatfieldshow.com. 

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All right, we're getting right into it. Jason, I hope you're ready today.

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I wish I had my coffee mug. I told you I was born ready. So I don't have to get ready. That's right. Well, something like that. That's not quite right. But it's close.

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It's close. It's close. You stay ready, so you don't have to get ready to get ready.

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That's right.

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But listen, for those pet lovers out there who might not always feel so ready. Don't worry, we got you today in this episode, because we are bringing back in a lovely friend of the show and friend of ours. Dr. Renee Schmid, from the pet poison helpline. And that's why did you get what I did there? Jason? Like if you're not ready?

01:18

I did. Yeah, yeah,

01:20

you can call the pet poison helpline. If you find yourself in need. And they have veterinary professionals standing by to guide you through what hopefully it turns out to be an interesting story rather than a really horrific evening. But we're not gonna talk any more about those outcomes. What we're gonna focus on today are common over the counter medication. toxicities, right? Yeah, no, it's

01:49

super super, you're gonna be great. I think this is gonna be one of the most useful, useful episodes we have, because everybody who has who has animals in their house has is gonna have to deal with this at one time or another. That's right. Yeah. Animals and drugs. I mean, everybody's got those. So

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and I'll tell you, Dr. Rene, welcome back to the show. We're so excited. You're here. Your episode. People love your episodes, because I think because they're, they're just nitty gritty, they help the pet owner. Right. That's what they are packed with info. So thanks for coming back. Thank you for having me. And I will admit folks out there. When I talked with Dr. Renee about coming back, and I just quietly said the topic of this show, over the counter medication toxicities. I think there was like I could hear a bit of an squeal coming from the Midwest. She was so excited to talk about this.

02:45

Just a little bit. Yeah.

02:47

So is this a common problem like this has happened all the time? Yeah,

02:51

it's really common. So animals getting into the human medications is one of the top reasons why people call us and it can be over the counter medications, even prescription medications today, we're really going to focus on the over counter ones because there are so many to talk about. agreed and

03:09

so when we're talking about OTC as we call them over the counter medications, we're talking about like what like, what's your what's your top ones that you worry about? Dr. Renee? Oh,

03:19

yeah, top ones I worry about are the pain medications. So ibuprofen and naproxen, acetaminophen, aspirin, every well intentioned owner sees their pet limping or in pain and so they they grab some medications and pain medication can kill you safe.

03:36

Are we allowed to use trade names with those Dr. Jen or not? Yeah, we say, do it. Right. Do it. So go ahead and go through that. So Ibuprofen is Advil. Yeah. And Acetaminophen is Tylenol. Alright. Oh, all right. I just want to make sure because a lot of you know, we say it a lot. It's probably half and half. So people know some people don't because everyone buys a generic nowadays, because it's so much cheaper. Just want to make sure everybody knows that's what we're talking about. So

04:01

yeah, you bet. And then I would say for naproxen. That would be a leave. Yeah. The the trade name for that.

04:07

Yeah. So the like, and you're right. I didn't even think about that until you just said it. I was thinking, accidental ingestion, right. But what you just described was, you know, someone who loves their dog or cat trying to do the right thing and make them feel better, and they give them the medication. So those are two very different scenarios. But I that one hadn't even occurred to me to talk about today. So I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, and

04:36

we certainly see it within both ways. I would say probably more commonly the doctor giving in to the medications that the owner set out. But we get a very high number of again, very well intentioned owners that are trying to treat their pets without veterinarian guidance.

04:53

Yeah, I think and that's the thing and so so we're not here to make you feel bad if you've done it right. Like because Oh, Gotta

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go. It only makes sense, right? I mean, if you don't know, and you're like, oh, it makes my headache go away my cat, I'm gonna give them some Tylenol, right? It only makes sense. And then you think, wow, you know your your friend calls you can't do that and I can't do and then that's when you call somebody that knows right, right

05:13

that's when you dial up pet poison helpline and get Dr. Renee and her team. Okay, so let's kick it off. Let's start with what like what's your favorite or the one that is like top of mind for you if you had to say your top one doctor Rene. Yeah,

05:27

ibuprofen for sure. And that's probably because it's so common in households, I got a large bottle in my household and as most bad many people do. And so it's always in our top 10 list for the last several years even for a human medications. And one of the most common ones that we see that animals get into, I would like to say a very close second would be an approximate however, and they're both. And so some people will use them interchangeably. And naproxen has even a lower margin of safety and animals than ibuprofen does.

06:02

Yeah. And I wonder it does that. Because then is it an approximation? So that's a leave folks, isn't it? The one that you take less often like for humans? Isn't that approximately one you take like once a day or something? And then ibuprofen, you could take like up to three times a day. So is that the reason is because it's like is it a sustained release or something like that? It's

06:24

a good question. I think that Aleve is one that you take less frequently than the others. And Wyatt has a the mechanism of action just slightly different between ibuprofen and naproxen. And there's just so many species differences between humans, dogs and cats with those that they tend to just respond so much more negatively to naproxen or Aleve.

06:48

Yeah, listen, you don't have to tell us about species differences. Right? Like, right. I know, Dr. Jason is a different species all together. And so everything hits him different, right? That's right.

06:59

Yeah. We always say that, you know, dogs aren't small humans, cats aren't small dogs. And, you know, we might think about, you know, when we had young children in our house with children's Tylenol or children's ibuprofen, and somebody says, gosh, I can give my you know, this to my 10 pound baby, I can give it to my 10 pound dog or a 10 pound cat. But unfortunately, it just, it just doesn't it isn't processed and metabolized.

07:26

So on that note, so why can't they like why? What happens to these dogs when let's stick with ibuprofen? Are we aware of what what signs the dog show? Or do they show any signs or what's happening with the dog when they take these, you know, human medications?

07:40

Yeah, so they're, they're at a really high risk of having ulcerations to their stomach and their intestinal tract. And then the larger the dose they ingest, they can also develop kidney failure. They can also develop neurologic signs. So some of these guys will have tremors and seizures and even go into a coma. And so it can take a while something that would be you know, maybe you and I taking up a 200 milligram, one tablet, ibuprofen wouldn't probably even touch our headache. But

08:11

he's right, talking about one

08:15

small dog getting one of those tablets could easily put them into kidney failure. Wow.

08:19

And, and so how quick does that happen with ibuprofen? Is that like hours? Are we talking days? Or? And is it can it be only with one dose? Yeah,

08:30

so one dose usually is how it happens. And most of the time these animals are getting into one dose if they're getting it on their own. Sometimes there's cases where the owners are giving them multiple doses throughout the weekend because their veterinarian is closed. And I would mention that this isn't limited to non medically trained feedback people owners. So I will have medically trained human medically trained pet owners that will call us and again their pharmacists, nurses that are giving their pets these medications because they didn't know the differences. But within a few hours, you might see vomiting occur, you might see a little bit of decreased appetite, but that doesn't always happen. So some of the larger signs happen when it's a little bit too late to start doing a lot of treatments. So then these guys will start after after a couple of days, they may start vomiting with blood, they can have some loose stool with blood in it as well. And then as that, you know, depending on the dose, if we're starting to get kidney damage developing these guys, they're not eating, they're continuing to vomit. They're really inactive. They just they look really kind of frumpy, they're lethargic. They just don't want to get up and move around.

09:44

Yeah, especially if their stomachs are ulcerated up, but they're not feeling very good. Yeah.

09:48

And that's interesting, because it's not because it didn't work. It's not because like, oh, I should give them more because they're still painful. Yeah, it's because they burned a hole through their gut. Okay, friends, so, okay, so That's interesting. Okay, so that that kicked that kicked us off. Right? I will tell you. So that's ibuprofen. So Advil, so don't give your dog or your cat Advil or ibuprofen, bad plan friends. And if they get into it, yeah, it sounds like we act quickly rather than slowly like back now no

10:19

later. Yeah, absolutely. Because that can start having negative effects, especially on the lining of the stomach and the intestinal tract within just a few hours, it gets absorbed really quickly, if we think about it, when we are taking ibuprofen for our headaches, we don't want something that x within three or four hours, we want something that really starts to get absorbed quickly. So we start to see the benefit of it. So it gets absorbed very quickly. And so in those cases, we've got to really act as fast as we can to try and minimize the amount of that that's getting absorbed.

10:52

Yes, right. Me. Yeah. Now I want my headache to go away. Yeah. So

10:56

it's super important to realize it, it only takes one pill depending on the size of the dog, it may only take one pill and so I speak for everybody I know it's not just me, who sometimes struggles in the middle of the night opening these Advil things and to spill them everywhere, right? And then you really have to make sure you pick them up there make them so small and clear, you know, kind of kind of shimmery, hard to see, but least they don't taste like candy anymore. That's, that's a good deal. And hard to find them. Make sure you get them all because if you don't find them, you better believe that the animals will, right. So yeah, for

11:28

sure. And thinking about anybody who has children in their house, if you set any type of medication, especially again, you know, even children's Tylenol children's ibuprofen, while they're lower concentration, there's still a high risk of causing issues. And so when that when that cup of the liquid is sitting on the on the nightstand, or those chewable tablets are sitting on the nightstand and the child gets up and moves away or doesn't readily take them. That pet is ready to be there. Get rid of that and can really start to get into issues from that. Yeah,

12:02

especially the cherry flavored ones. Those are good like candy. like

12:06

candy. Yeah. And the pitcher is doing their their job for the team. They're cleaning up right. So yeah, yeah,

12:13

the work is the rework, right? That's

12:14

exactly right. All right, hang out. We've got we got even more coming with Dr. Renee. But we wanted to get the top one out of the way we got a brief break. We'll be right back. With all the fuss happening in the pet food industry, why not invest in something to help guard against digestive health derangements in your pet. Full buckets probiotics are formulated by veterinarians to support your pets normal digestive health, your pets gut microbiome is integral to their immune system performance. Why not add full buckets daily dog or daily cat probiotic powder to your pets daily routine? to curate protect, maintain and strengthen your pets microbiome. Visit full bucket health.com today to check out all of their veterinary strength supplements Okay, all right, we're back. We're still talking common OTC over the counter medication toxicities. So now we know no matter how much you want to give your pet some ibuprofen over the weekend, don't do it. And put your glasses on in the middle of the night so you find every pill that you spilled

13:23

but I will tell you how to make a glasses joke I don't I think

13:25

I think it's only for Dr. Jason is only for Dr. Jason.

13:30

I tell you what,

13:31

it's hard What is this? These are getting old was hard. But

13:35

yeah, it's hard to find the medicine when you spill them getting old as hard are you talking to I know it both

13:41

challenging

13:45

so but but but I will say it to me the fear is not the not getting everyone that I dropped it's not knowing that I accidentally dropped one right and so you could find yourself in this situation through no fault of your own. Accidents do happen and that is why pet poison helpline is so invaluable to pet owners and to veterinarians. Because this is what they do. Right and then you guys are available 24/7 Which which is a wonderful phone a friend availability. So all right, so our next up like I want to I wanted to ask specifically about when because people at the people call the practice all the time asking about you know, well my dog doesn't feel well. I think he has a fever so I gave him some well they say Tylenol, I'm gonna say acetaminophen, but I gave him some Tylenol and I instantly cringe but I'm never really sure how significant it is that they gave it to him. And then what if they get in the trash and they get some they scoop up the pills. So tell us tell us about Tylenol as an over the counter. Yeah,

14:51

Tylenol is another is another unfortunate one for animals to get into as well. And it doesn't act in the same way that ibuprofen or practice does. So with Tylenol, we don't see stomach ulcer ERATION developing, which is a good thing. The downside is that we can see liver failure. And then we can see red blood cell changes that don't allow the red blood cells to carry oxygen throughout the body as it needs to. So while the GI tract, the stomach, intestinal tract, so it gets a little bit of a break, we have a double whammy yeast with liver failure, and then red blood cell changes.

15:27

Yeah, that

15:29

sounds like no fun at all. I don't even want to take it now. You're scaring me? Yeah,

15:33

I know, it sounds really

15:34

sensitive. Cats are probably three to four times as sensitive as dogs are. So even just the smallest amount and a cat can definitely can definitely be problematic. And these guys, yeah,

15:45

that's when it's nice to have cats that are picky eaters, I suppose. Unless, unless you're right, and then shove it down there, you know, lets you make them take it, which is probably more more apt for cat problems. Oh,

15:54

well, I think these days, we're all you know, we now understand better the mechanisms for pain. And, and are a little bit more, I think sensitive than we were like 30 or 40 years ago to pain in our pets. And so people again, you might be trying to do a good thing. But just as if you're a cat owner, holy moly. Don't give your cat nothing that wasn't prescribed. Cats are just, they're not small dogs. And if it wasn't their idea, then the cat physiology is going to reject it. That's a fact.

16:24

Yeah, for sure. When it comes to medications, they drew the short straw in line for what 100

16:32

They just gotta be tough.

16:34

And they are right. They are really tough. So okay, so but we're not saying let your cat suffer. Don't hear that internet. We're not saying that. We're saying seek veterinary care for your cat if you think that they're uncomfortable or in pain. Okay, so

16:47

that's exactly that's just don't have as many options as is true.

16:51

So that was a big whack right off the top. We got the NSAIDs, I guess mostly out of the way. We didn't talk about aspirin. Some people still like think think that like the old standby of aspirin is okay. What do you think Dr. Rene?

17:06

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it. There's definitely over the counter, doggy aspirin that you can get at pet stores. And it's scary.

17:13

Can we just stop right there and say I'm afraid for that, like that scares me as an emergency clinician.

17:19

Yeah, we just we know better. We know we can we have safer medications. Now there are medications that have been specifically formulated for animals for dogs and cats for pain. It does have a it has a little bit of a wider margin of safety, but it's still not high. And it's still not something that I would recommend ever giving to a dog or especially a cat.

17:42

So I have I have a big general 20,000 foot question for you not specifically about before we transition to different matters, not specifically about a specific medicine. But as and I'm always interested to see how well we're doing as an industry at educating our clientele. So as the years go by, sounds terrible. But do you see the number of calls about this type of emergency sort of specifically, as like the gross number decreasing, increasing or staying the same? Meaning are more people aware that well, we really shouldn't be giving our our pets, Tylenol and aspirin and all that kind of support? Do you think it's essentially staying the same?

18:22

I think it's essentially staying the same reason I the reason I say that is because there are still a lot of pet parents out there that don't routinely seek veterinary care. And so they are they don't have a veterinarian relationship established. They are looking for self medication, you know, self treatment, that of their pets. They are talking to their neighbor to their neighbors, cousins, friends, you know, they're talking to a lot of dirt, they're Googling. You can google Dr. Google knows everything. Sometimes it just isn't accurate that he knows. And so you can find information that will tell you how much aspirin to give to your pet or how much ibuprofen or

19:06

different medication how much is safe and bla bla,

19:08

not looking at the right resource. If you're not getting that right guidance, your people will still continue to make those mistakes, again, with the best of intention. If they just are they're just finding that right resource.

19:22

That's a terrible reason. That is a terrible terrible answer. Okay, you ruined my day. I kind of thought you would say oh, yeah, we're getting Wait, we're not great, but we're

19:32

much better it is so much better. What I would say is that the the medications available to dogs and cats specifically, are improving and are more readily available. We just have to get everybody to to notice.

19:48

I mean everyone recognized to get chocolate and I just thought that would be sort of on par with the chocolate situation. But I guess not I guess it's just doesn't come up enough or you're right. They just don't see veterinary care, you know, as much as they should don't have a good relationship with their local veterinarian. So get on it, people.

20:07

That's right, that's 100%. Right. So but again, you don't have to be a veterinarian to call pet poison helpline. Right? You can reach out for help. Whether you have a veterinarian or not, it doesn't matter. Just reach out for help, so you can have your pet. Okay, so that was a big swing with the NSAIDs. So what's your next kind of common? Because I mean, I have a question about like one group of drugs, but I was kind of waiting to see if we get to it. So what is your next one that you think is big?

20:35

Yeah, let's shift gears and go to decongestants. And especially when we're thinking about you know, in the wintertime and the fall and seasonal allergies that turn into yearly allergies and people may be taking an ANA histamine that also has a decongestant in it as well. And decon and decongestants began very narrow margin of safety and dogs and cats with pseudoephedrine very narrow margin of safety Fenella friend with the FDA recently saying that no, doesn't really do anything which is great. So if we can have that we one less drug on the market with him getting into that with pseudoephedrine, these dogs and cats. If they get into it, they'll become really agitated. They're they're really kind of ramped up, they're hyped up. And they can have high heart rates, high blood pressure, tremors, seizures, be potentially fatal to these guys. Yeah.

21:27

So we're, when we're looking at the box, folks. It's something that says blank, and there's a hyphen and it says D. Right. So you got it. Any of the DS is absorbtech, D, Claritin, D. You know Allegra D, all the DS, they have that decongesting component, and then also some of the liquids, right, some of those liquid cough syrup and stuff have the decongestant. Yep,

21:51

you've got it. So even like some of the cough suppressants will have a decongestant in there as well. And it isn't uncommon for an for a veterinarian to recommend a certain anti histamine or even a cough suppressant that's over the counter for a pet owner to give to their pet. And so we see a decent number of calls where that pet owner thought they were giving Benadryl or thought they were giving Claritin and didn't realize that they were giving that like you said, Claritin. D. Oh.

22:24

Yeah, yeah. And I'll tell you, that's like my argument for I mean, I'm all about everything has a cost, right. And so, and everyone has a finite amount of funds, no one has infinite resources. And so I get it, that everyone's trying to sort of trim down that veterinary bill. But it's, it's just not worth the potential catastrophic emergency you might create by making that error. So if your veterinarian can prescribe it, and then dispense it, like send you home with it from their practice, it's just safer, you know, what, what you're getting is right, you don't have to trust that you pick the right box off of the, like, crazy shelf full of things. So, you know, consider that as a as a pet parent, when you're, like, you know, trying to figure out what you're gonna do, it's gonna cost you some money, no matter where you get it from. But it might cost you more than that, if you get the wrong one, you know, when you try to get it over the counter, rather than just picking it up from your vet. So there is a value in getting it direct from your vet. There. Now, I will tell you, I have you know, kind of guided clients through the selection process, right. They're standing in the, you know, in the grocery store pharmacy, calling me back and saying like, exactly what did you recommend? And so, you know, also do that right, make sure you get the right drug. So okay, so decongestant zoomies are not good. Not

23:57

happy. That's pretty congested zoomies. That's the thing was, yeah, she said to get all crazy. Yeah, no, it's it's a funny way to put it. It's funny. Listen,

24:05

I live with a French Bulldog. So we have zooms and then we have couch potato. These are our two speeds. Yes. So okay. So that's good. So and that's great to know. Because CoQ, I feel like cold and flu season is just year round now. Like, I don't think it has like an actual season. Okay, so And to be fair, the antihistamines was the category of drug I was hoping you were going to bring. So all right, yeah. Yeah. So get out of my head. Dr. Rene, get out of my head. All right. So so we had NSAIDs or the you know, the pain relievers. We had the cold and flu, cold and flu. Is there another big group that you guys commonly get calls about?

24:45

Yeah, let's switch over to supplements. So about like vitamins, mineral supplements, dietary supplements like that. And that next one for me would be vitamin d3. So vitamin D Really supplements?

25:01

Oh really? Is

25:02

that one that people are actually like actively dosing their pet with or it's an accidental they ate the bottle.

25:09

Yeah, most of the time they're getting into it I yeah, I can't think of a time where we've had one where the owners actively giving them a high dose, it's usually it's usually the pet gets into a bottle and ingests a large quantity of it. In vitamin d3, the amount varies so drastically, you can get a supplement that has maybe 100 to 150 international units, which is usually how it's dosed international units, or you can get up to 50,000 international units. And you don't even have to know what international units means. But knowing that go from 100 to $50 range, and everything in between, Yeah, huge range. And so some of these, depending on the amount can be extremely detrimental. And our big concern with those are going to be for high calcium levels to develop in the blood. And then, because of that high calcium, we get mineralization of different tissues and organs, and the kidneys are extremely sensitive. So these guys will develop kidney failure,

26:13

and how and how long like, so again, is this one where we're talking about, um, they they ate it, so they get the bottle and they eat it. It takes a while for anything to mineralize, doesn't it? It

26:25

does. Yeah. So first off, you can see after a couple of days are up to the first day or so you may see vomiting, not feeling well, not really wanting to eat again, they're really sluggish, which is kind of the theme of the conversation of like when these things first happened, that's not going to tell you specifically what you know what it is they got into because a lot of times they act the same way. Or sometimes they're even really mild and the owners don't even notice it. And then as time progresses, they may see an increase in drinking and then urination. And then as that continues to go on, we're getting tissue damage, we're getting kidney, we're getting kidney damage developing. And we'll start to see those changes in kidneys in our kidney enzymes or kidney values before necessarily the mineralization is noticeable. You can even see mineralization in the intestinal tract and in the hearts in a lot of different organs that the kidneys tend to really get hit. Hardest probably the soonest. Yeah,

27:28

it's pretty it's pretty late in the game at that point.

27:30

It is. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't mean you it doesn't mean we could treat them and some of these guys can do pretty well. They may have to be managed as a chronic kidney failure patient, which certainly there's plenty of dogs and cats that roam the earth for years with chronic kidney disease. But the goal would be to try to catch it early. There's a lot of things we can do called decontamination, that we can minimize that absorption. But even if the owner didn't know what happened, and realize that a few days later, we can still do something to try and help minimize the severity. Yeah,

28:08

that was my point. Don't Don't take the wait and see approach. If you see that your pet got into something, call somebody right away, right? Call you guys right away just to find out if Oh, it's no big deal, or oh, let's go and get started or whatever. Don't wait and see hoping against hope that nothing's gonna happen. Because yeah, all the time. You know, it's, it's pretty late, it's pretty late in the game.

28:28

And absolutely, and I would mention with that, too, is that a lot of times that wait and see approach is more costly. You always say I don't want to, you know, I don't want to spend the money to check on this or to do this. And then a few days later, when they are symptomatic, the treatment needs are so much more aggressive than had we been able to catch things early on, it typically is going to be one, it's going to be safer for the pet less stressful for the pet, that typically it's going to be more economical if we can catch things right away, as opposed to waiting until the signs have already started.

29:05

Well, and I think the other point that you alluded to there is that once the tissue damage happens, it doesn't like even if you get you're able to suck the toxin out, the tissue damage is still there. Right? Like it's so and that's why some of those pets may end up being chronic kidney disease patients because even though that we were able to do something about the vitamin D, after they were exposed to it can't reverse that tissue damage. Right. So so it's I would say it's always better. You can always call. I mean, you don't you don't have to do anything, but you can call and find out. Right and that's why I think poison helpline is so valuable also to not only veterinarians, but pet parents because I don't know what to do. And so you can call them find out do I do something now? Do I do something later? You know, what do we do? So I think that's wonderful. Okay, so vitamin D Um, and that's the other point about supplements, folks, if you don't know, this, supplements are like the wild west of like, really our I mean, there's like zero regulation. So, you know, you could go from one bottle to the next. And there could be nothing of what is supposed to be in there that's on the label in the bottle, absolutely nothing, none of it, you know, and you're taking them for 30 days, and maybe you're feeling better, the mind is powerful. But there could be nothing in there. Or there could be 10 times what is supposed to be in there. So yeah, so and this is again, where I would, I would say talk to your veterinarian, if you're going to take a supplement, you need to make sure that there's veterinarians involved either in the manufacturing in the testing, or in the selling it to you. Because someone needs to be doing their due diligence for testing and quality control, because the government's not requiring it. So yeah, so be be wary. Just be wary. So yeah. Okay, so supplements, is there any, any any others? Because then, like, I want to move into, what are we going to do about it? Right? Like, what should you expect? If you go to your veterinarian? Were they going to do can they do? But is there another class that's commonly involved?

31:17

Yeah, one more I would throw out would be iron, higher supplements, oh, really, you think about prenatal vitamins, there's a much higher amount of iron that's in there than just in a general than just an a general multivitamin. iron supplements themselves. So anemia, mild anemia is very common in humans. And so there are a lot of people who are taking iron supplements, and not a wide margin of safety and dogs or cats. And so even just one, no one truly iron supplements, sometimes these guys can have about 65 milligrams of what we call elemental iron in them. And that's enough for a medium sized dog to be quite problematic. So it's not necessarily a one pill can kill on a medium to large sized dog, but enough to be problematic and severely, severely concerning and a small dog or a cat. Did

32:13

you know that Jason about that?

32:14

I had no idea that I didn't either. I mean, I would always okay, I'd be a conservative if my pets got into anything that was made for humans, but I never would have thought it was such a big deal with probably like, ah, you know, I'll call and check. But I don't think there's going to be a problem. And I would get this news and be totally, you know, shocked.

32:31

And be glad you call. That's what happened. Yes. Always. Yeah. Yeah.

32:35

Always called. Even if the news is like, why are you calling me? It's fine. That's great. I'm happy.

32:41

Right? Yeah, those are the calls we love to be able to give, you can now you can hear, you can hear those pet parents on the other end of the phone, holding their breath, and they're nervous, and they're scared and being able to be that voice of comfort for them and to say everything's going to be okay. We love those calls. But unfortunately, there are so many of them where it isn't. But I always like to point out iron and I like to point out vitamin d3 as well. Because if we think about it, those are they're they're essential nutrients, they're they're necessary for our body, and we take them as humans without really giving a whole lot of thought to to it. Now we know we need it, it's good for us. And so the issue isn't that it's bad for them. It's that the amount the the amount that humans are taking, versus what the animals need. It just far exceeds what the animals should have. And then they just very quickly get into problems.

33:35

Yeah, I mean, what 100% And that's where you get into that whole, like, you know, dogs are not smaller people. And cats are definitely not small dogs. So yeah, so So you do have to worry. And and here's the other part, I just want to mention to anyone out there, if you have to make this call, either to your veterinarian or to pet poison helpline. It doesn't mean that you did something wrong. And you but you may you may have there may have been an accident, or you may have done something not knowing that it was a risk for your pet. But don't be afraid to take the next stepping call. Because no one's gonna judge you. Because now you're trying to make it better. Right? So So again, don't be afraid to call its Doctor Rene is not going to tell anybody you know that you called or what you did, but she may tell you how to save your pets life. So, so we need to do that. All right. So listen. So let's talk about what are we going to do so let's say were you find yourself at the vet and he came because pet poison helpline said holy moly, drive carefully to your veterinarian, and let's get that pet treated. What What, like laying it out for us what's like what in general is going to happen? Yeah, so

34:58

great question. So A lot of times, we'll kind of start from the beginning. So you've called us and we have suggested you go in. And then once you get into that Veterinary Clinic, so there's always a case number, a reference number that goes with the case and with that pet, and so then the clinic can call us. And then we will talk with our veterinarians and our specialists will talk with your veterinarians, your pets, veterinarians, and just lay it all out for them to say this is this is the concern, we're going to verify, we're going to make sure the story didn't change, because maybe you found a few more tablets after we got off the phone with you. Or maybe you realize they got into something else. In addition, or maybe the weight was way off from what you had estimated to what they were in that in the clinic then that day. So kind of we gather all that information, we'll make sure we've got the the most current version of the story, and most current weight so that we can assess whether or not it's going to be an issue and what issue it's, it's going to pause, then we'll talk about with the veterinarian, this is what we expect to see this is when we expect to see it, this is how long it might last. And

36:02

this is this is vet to vet right. So that's one of the things that happens. So if you call pet poison helpline and you and they recommend you get your your pet immediately treated, then you take that number of friends write the number down, take it with you. And then the veterinarian can call pet poison helpline and say this is the case number or the reference number. And they get to talk to a toxicologist right. Yeah, that is incredible.

36:29

Yeah, and this is one of the things that I think really kind of sets us apart from a lot of the different, you know, triage lines that are out now, or algorithms or apps that you can plug in and get information. It really stops there with that pet parents talk about. And with us, we're able to take it from that, from that from the beginning, all the way to the end. And so when we help that veterinarian, we're not just helping them one time, we don't just say, good luck, here's what you need. Good luck,

37:01

you know, hope

37:02

everything turns out, all right. But we're available to them to call back as often as they need. So when your pet doesn't read the book, or decides, you know, what cat wants to follow the rules, they all want to do something a little bit different. And so we're there to help with and they can call back and say, This is what the lab work looks like. Now, this is what the clinical signs are changing to or happening or this medication didn't work or, you know, what am I Where do I go with this? And we'll follow? Well, we will take as many of these callbacks as necessary. And go back into going back to vitamin d3, these guys that develop signs from vitamin d3, sometimes they are needing treatment for weeks, even months. And yeah, that is that is all on one. Yeah, we'll continue to help that veterinarian because we want to ensure that that pet has that the best chance possible to get back home where it belongs. That's

37:55

wonderful. That's wonderful. So this is, so that sounds like a little bit more sort of high level stuff, rather than I'm going to give it activated charcoal orally to soak up the stuff that's left, and then I'm going to flush it with fluids because dilution has always been my solution to any pollution. Right? This is much more sophisticated approach, because it's guided by a toxicologist

38:18

right. Yeah, you got it. And some things, some things aren't absorbed by activated charcoal. And so why Yeah, I know. And some things ever tell are to excreted with with that in the urine. So sometimes fluids aren't necessarily recommended. And but you know, that's why we're here. Because when I was in practice, I was in general and emergency practice for many years before switching over to strictly toxicology. And I saw I saw cases every once in a while and you know, little things here and there. But it was never an a high enough number where you could really feel confident in what it was. And the FDA if you if you watch TV at all, and you see commercials, you'll see that there's a new drug constantly being marketed

39:04

every 10 minutes. There's a new bug in America. Right, exactly.

39:07

And so a lot of times we just don't have that information. And so by being able to utilize it as a center that concentrates just on toxicology, it would be like you know, going to an oncologist for cancer therapy or any other specialist it's a it's a specialty that we can help. We can help you that pet parent, we can help the veterinarian we can guide you through that entire process. Yeah,

39:30

and veterinarians are super, always grateful. Yeah, so that situation. It's always great to phone a friend because we're dealing with all kinds of stuff and it's great to have someone who's focused on that problem and can kind of help us and help everyone there's like a team, right? It's another valuable member of the of the team.

39:47

Well and like Dr. Annette, you and I were talking a few weeks ago about you know, harmful algal blooms. And like what like working sheet well like I mean, I've seen one One in my career. And that's it, right. And there's like, there was another vet in South Florida who had seen too, at the same time, because they were two dogs in the same family, you know? And so, I mean, what are we going to have, like, I've seen it one time, but you like you experience all of these toxins, like you're all toxins all the time. And so it's incredibly helpful, because you can concentrate that and so we can just leverage your knowledge.

40:28

You got it? Yeah. And we take calls throughout all of North America. So United States and Canada, really all around the world. And so we just are able to absorb that database. I'll toot the horn that we are celebrating our 20th year in business this year. And so we're able to take 20 years of data, 20 years of animals getting into things that they shouldn't have. And so we can we utilize that to constantly look and to see what changes are happening in these types of treatments, and toxic doses and all sorts of things. So we're really able to utilize all of that than what they want me personally would have been able to do and just practice.

41:11

Right, right, which is, which is, which is the value, I mean, that that's, that's the value for it. So, okay, so I guess, if we were going to kind of put a bow on this, we would say, number one, be careful with your pills, right? Like don't get into drop them turn the light on, you know, like it's uncomfortable, the middle the night, but turn the light on. Okay. Toby, feeling around to see if you got all those pills. Never dose your pet at home without the guidance of your veterinarian, just don't do it. It's just not safe. You might save $1. But then you'll end up spending 10 of them. Because you'll make your logic

41:48

right. Yeah, you're lucky you get the option to spend the money. Exactly the option. And then

41:53

you don't get the option there because it's just dramatic results. Okay, so that's my two. So let's see. So any boy, what what, what are what are what else? Are y'all taking away from this? What do you think everyone should get? Besides, count your pills and keep them safe? And then don't give your pet meds? Without guidance. You

42:13

don't give your pets anything without guidance, especially especially anything designed for humans, right? Yeah, but what's the number to call 1-800-213-6680.

42:20

And we are again, available 24/7. And we also have a website, pet poison. helpline.com. Feel free to look there's a whole list. You can plug and chug, you can look at what is you know, ibuprofen, and we can say is this a concern or not what you might see. And that can help guide you to no or plants. There are different types of foods, a lot of different things that are there.

42:47

And we'll put we're putting a link in the show notes friends. So don't drive off the road, you're probably looking at that telephone number right now. If you're watching the video on the YouTube, there's blogs and stuff on your all's website that I think are helpful. They're short reads, but they they're packed with information. I think that's also very helpful for not only pet parents, but also for veterinary professionals. If you just want to, you know, keep abreast of what is toxic these days.

43:14

Yeah, and if I can also put it in a plug for toxin tails. So Tuckson tails is campaign and educational campaign that we are starting our fourth year now love, and it is something where we pick a case then these all have happy endings, which is the best news story you can get. And so they all have happy endings. There are cases where we were able to help that pet parent as well as the veterinarian. And we talked to them about maybe it's a common toxin, like maybe it is chocolate or xylitol or maybe it's something that is really we have one that's coming out here very soon. That is a product that was on has been off the market for the last almost 5030 30 years. 30 ish years. And this animal got into it. And so

44:04

was it like in a bunker like in a survival bunker? I

44:07

like to read the story that he's a

44:11

doctor with a deep tea.

44:13

I know. But these are so fun, because there's something again, that can be common, it can be off the wall, and we send them out once a month. We just want to educate the public, you know our businesses, toxicology, what we want animals are animals, they are going to get into things. What we really want is for pet owners to recognize when they do get into something that they need to act on it.

44:33

Yeah, absolutely. 100% I think that's the best. Like if you can prevent the the toxic exposure, you're winning, you're winning

44:40

toxic tails, T AI toxin toxin.

44:43

entail ti l Yeah,

44:47

worse, right.

44:48

Yes. All right. So we'll have a link up there for that too, in the show notes, especially for Dr. Jason to find. And yeah, so I gotta say thank you so much for coming to talk with us. I'm all about our common OTC medication and those toxicities just like any, any either of you have anything else you want to add at the end there toxins? I

45:11

don't think it's great. I think it's fantastic. I love learning about stuff. And I love learning that other people have have the same problems that we all we all have. And there's help there's help out there if you run into these issues, so that's always great. That's

45:24

right. I think that's the most reassuring thing is that you can call 24/7 and get phone a friend and you get a friend. And they will help. That's wonderful. But you know who else you can call your veterinarian. You can also call your veterinarian. Okay, friends. So we get we're giving you two good options here. To take advantage of to get the best outcome for your pet. Should they make a mistake and get into something or should you try to do the good thing? Give them something they shouldn't have? Then you can you can find help. Thank you so much. Dr. Renee Schmid from pet poison helpline for joining us. We love it when you come into the chat room. Well, thank

46:01

you so much for having me and allowing us to spread the word on animal poisonings.

46:07

Yeah, you got to spread it better, right?

46:11

We're plateaued. Let's fix that friends. So share this episode, share this episode with a friend. Stick this number on your fridge so you can find it when you need it. And as always subscribe to our shows so you never miss an episode. I'm Dr. Jenn the vet. And I'm Dr. Jason. And we'll catch y'all on the next one. The professional Animal Care certification council or pack brings independent testing and certification to the pet care services industry is your dog's daycare or boarding kennel or a groomer manned by pack certified professionals don't know if you don't know you got to ask look for the pack emblem at your facility to make sure that your pets receiving the highest level of professional pet care because we all know it's safer in a pack your pack CE code for this episode is cc 220087.

47:08

This episode is brought to you by full bucket veterinary strength supplements the leader in digestive health for dogs, cats and horses.